These are chat archives for BSData/warhammer-age-of-sigmar

19th
Feb 2018
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 00:44
mumblemumble* Shadow Queen ..... new Order Faction Battletome being released .... https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/18/shadow-queen-unveiled/
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 03:29
So .... leaders count as leaders when they’re allies. But can’t be selected as Generals when they are taken as an Ally... which indicates that the general link either needs to be on the RSE ... (potentially) Or hidden when the Unit is selected as an Ally ....
(GHB P.76 Allies ...)
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 03:55
I have been working on splitting up the Order catalogs into separate catalogs for the main Order groups (currently Stormcast, Seraphon, Kharadron Overlords and Fyreslayers). In order to do this I needed to move a few things to the GST. I added a few common keywords (DUARDIN, HUMAN, ORDER) to the category entries. I moved the allegiance SSE to the GST.
I also moved the Order and Stormcast Artefacts to the GST. I can merge these changes to the Chaos-updates branch or I can continue to work in separate branch (and continue to merge Chaos-updates onto my branch). How are changes to the catalogs being tested? I am currently exporting them and building rosters using the PC version of Battlescribe.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 06:04
How is the Ally validation working when you have multiple forces? That's the main reason I haven't split Chaos.
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 06:22
I have not tried to implement the ally validation yet. Is it working in Chaos? I can try to emulate what you have working in Chaos.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 06:46
It works based on the Guidelines. There's only a few units with the correct RSE setup right now though.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 09:40
@OftKilted, regarding Ally Generals, we should be able to hide the General option if the unit's PBF isn't selected.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 14:00
Order, and chaos are the two largest splits. Being able to break those up would potentially be an advantage for maintenance of the catalogs. Death is pretty darn small overall. 2 current battletomes (FEC and legions of Nagash) and two Compendium battletomes (Tomb kings and Vampire Counts)
If we can figure out the ally validation with a split catalog, then sure, let’s split them up. Otherwise .... I’m not sure that it is advantageous. (Unless we decide to handle Allies completely differently.)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:06
I'm just not sure how it will work with the current idea of Allies.
In theory it should be fine, but it's just much easier to do it in a single catalogue.
Hopefully, Jon will have inheritance/import working in BS 2.02 which should solve the problem.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 14:09
If all of the Allegiances were in the gst. I could see it potentially working...
Easily a “Allegiance Order” and then all he Order sin Factions under it.
Go autocorrect ...
From an ease of implementation a “Allegiances - Order” and then one for Destruction, death and Chaos in the gst. Along with the PBF for everything...
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:13
I'll keep working on the Ally support with the split catalogs. So far the solution to most of the split catalog issue have solutions in moving things into the GST.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:18
What if I add a Force with which my PBF isn't an Ally, will I get an empty list?
How will you manage the current plan of forcing Allegiance selection on a per-Force basis? Do nested Forces support it?
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:24
Currently, I've moved the Allegiance SSE (all of them) to the GST. The PBF references the Allegiance in the GST. I have not worked out all of the pitfalls yet. BS supports at least a 2-level inheritance when using common SSEs in the GST.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:27
Are you working on a fork right now?
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:28
Currently I have a private branch off of the Chaos-updates branch.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:29
Can you sync it into the main repo so we can see it?
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:30
I can push the changes to a new remote branch.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:30
that's what I mean.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 14:37
@rweyrauch you might need to move the PBF to the gst as well...
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:42
I do not appear to have permissions to create a branch on github. (Or I can not seem to find the magic button).
Moving the PBF to the GST may well work.
@OftKilted Moving the PBF to the GST may well work.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 14:47
Put them in a personal repository, and then share that.
The entire paradigm of Allies validation is based on the Allegiance table and the PBF table
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 14:52
I'll create a new repo and share that with you. I have to run off to work. I'll create the new repo this evening (Pacific time-zone) when I get back.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 14:52
I'll add you to the list of authors, one sec.
you should have had an invite by mail.
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 15:24
Got the invite. I've moved some of the chaos PBF table to the GST. I am patching up the changes and will push a new branch later today. Thanks.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 15:27
Try to see if you can make it work with Order and Allies using the base instructions in the implementation guidelines on the wiki
After you move the PBF and Allies for order to the gst
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 16:11
I pushed a new 'order' branch to github. The catalogs are very much in flux. I have moved the PBF and Allies to the GST. I am in the process of patching up all of the links in order.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 16:33
This is my problem with split factions.
image.png
There's no way I can think of for us to enforce matching Allegiances on multi-catalogue Rosters. Also the user has to select allegiance and PBF multiple times to build a roster when doing an high-level Allegiance list, like "ORDER" or "CHAOS".
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 19 2018 16:36
@Mad-Spy its probably just gotta be a necessary evil; same with 40k.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 16:37
But it's not so much of a problem in 40k because there's no similar split between Allegiance and PBF.
In 40k, all of the special rules are enforced at Detachment level. In AoS, it's army level.
Keeping single Cats removes the issue.
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 17:04
My motivation for splitting the catalogs is mainly for maintenance. A single huge catalog of difficult to merge xml is a real pain. Hard to collaborate, etc.
If the split does not meet the list builder's needs, then a single catalog it is. Perhaps future versions of BS will address this.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 17:15
@rweyrauch I’m all for easier maintenance... but until/if Geedub modifies how Allegiance and PBF is actually managed (perhaps we’ll see that next edition) it doesn’t look to be a simple solution, unless we go to a manual “Allies” switch like the official version.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 19 2018 17:15
I absolutely agree that it makes maintenance a whole load easier, but I think we're stuck given the limitations of how we can implement Allegiance and PBF. Like I said, Jon has said that he will look at implementing inheritance/import in 2.02 (see BSData/wh40k#967) which should allow us to make it work "properly".
because the per-faction cats could be hidden, and the user visible ones made to include links back to them.
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 17:23
It's my suspicion that the old AoS support died because maintenance became such a burden. I don't want that to happen again.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 19 2018 17:24
@rweyrauch more that the people who were spearheading it got busy irl
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 17:24
@rweyrauch It “died” because the official website version was good enough... and Allies sucked in GHB 2017
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 19 2018 17:24
@flakpanda was the primary dude in charge of it after 2.0
but also AoS and 30k suffer the same fate; apparently nobody wants to work on non-40k
30k is for slightly different reasons though
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 17:26
And I poked at the Allies issue in annoyance for a bit. But the consensus of how the ghb 2017 managed allies and allegiance and list building under the new model was/is a serious challenge.
That and the Grand Alliance catalogues are a huge undertaking for one person
Especially if there aren’t any “consistency guidelines”
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 17:27
We are all busy. It's a matter of motivation. No one to spend there time on a sisyphean effort.
There appears to be enough interest to get the AoS catalogs going again.
Damn auto type. No one wants to spend their time...
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 17:29
I blame @Mad-Spy for this.
;)
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 17:31
I don't know the history of BS, but it appears to primarily support 40k.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 19 2018 17:32
only because @amis92 is basically Jon’s right hand dude and is one of the 40k data devs
BS is system-agnostic as in it’s not built for any one system; there are just features that are added as needed for the other systems
40k just happens to be the most widely used system with BS
Rick Weyrauch
@rweyrauch
Feb 19 2018 17:34
The guide lines are a great help. Coding rules into xml files using the DataEditor tool can be a bit frustrating. Patterns to follow are crucial to enable people to help out.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 19 2018 17:52

only because @amis92 is basically Jon’s right hand dude and is one of the 40k data devs

Can't decide on the net sentiment of that statement. Some help? :)

OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 19 2018 17:56
@amis92 I took it that BS has a whole bunch of features that in many ways have been spearheaded by the 40k Community, and the 40k Community is fortunate to have you as a data advocate, as you’ve generated a solid relationship with the program developer.
Given that I was using BS way back in the day and as a data dev on the really early 40k stuff, I understand that. Jon was definitely not “as busy” back then.
But in those days, everything was hosted on the battlescribe forums...
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 19 2018 18:04
@amis92 nothing but love and respect. :)
it was me pointing out why it could seem like BS was 40k focused
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 19 2018 18:34

Oh the forums times. Yeah, being 40k-driven is definitely a fact. Jon being so absent most of the time is, I think, partially because he doesn't sacrifice more time for the general data author community, and partially because he's not really feeling good in that space. He has mentioned a few times that

you guys have done things I never imagined possible

So he was really taking his time to catch up with what we've built on what he provided.

I think it's overwhelming him, it's amazing what he'd created at the time. We're just stagnating for most of the time because it's overgrown him. Too big of a project for one person.