These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

6th
Apr 2016
Jon Taylor
@Jonskichov
Apr 06 2016 17:16
:P
I'm on the cusp of an Android alpha, any day now. I need to get off my arse and put out another desktop alpha too, just to make sure nothing has broken.
Then... iOS... Which will be another month or more. We're getting there though!
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 18:13
@Jonskichov You should update your dev process. cough IOS first cough
;-)
Mainly because releasing everything piecemeal makes it difficult for users, when the data files get updated/converted to 1.16.
Or plan to release everything simultaneously. That would be nice.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 18:21
? It's in an
Jon Taylor
@Jonskichov
Apr 06 2016 18:34
Well, I'm putting things out piecemeal as part of the dev process. The full release will be simultaneous, on all platforms :) piecemeal is the price you pay for alphas :P
And iOS has to come last for Technical Reasons. A lot of the Android work will help things along there though. I should be starting on iOS in the next week I guess...
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 18:45
@Jonskichov Oh, absolutely. Definitely save the best/easiest for last. Better to get the hard stuff out of the way early on in the process.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:08
I'm willing to help testing on iOS also, so you can deal with me being a pain in the ass even more! ;)
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:10
@cartag Did you want to do the quick 'remove boltgun' edit for the KDK Berzerker Champion? If not, I'll toss the fix in tonite.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:11
It's already fixed in my working file, I was going to see if there was anything else that needed done though, because every damn time I update there's something posted right after that I could have gotten at the same time
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:11
Unless you wanted to go back through the rules section?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:12
huh?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:12
I haven't seen anything other than the wonky Chaos Lord terminator armor grenades issue. (And I'm not happy with the fix I did in my personal copy ... it isn't clean.)
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:12
what do you mean go back through the rules section?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:13
In case we're missing any rule profile entries. (i.e. blank rules)
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:13
and that's also fixed in the copy I'll be putting up
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:14
Any thoughts on 'adding in' the complely bogus 'KDK Chaos Knights can take 'legacies of ruin' ITC ruling?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:14
All of the army specific rules are in there, anything the only rules that are missing text are from the BRB
Have we heard anything official from FW on it? Then no.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:15
Good ... that is such a bogus ruling for knights that take the daemon knight of X addon.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:15
They should be able to take them though... provided they DO NOT take the Daemon knight rule
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:15
That, I'm with you on. It's not a 'daemon' ... so it's not a 'Daemon Engine'
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:15
But it is if it takes the Daemon Knight rule
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:16
So, extremely useful as an additional CAD support, using cultists, a cheap HQ and a LoW.
(though ... you would have to take that as primary I believe, as you can't take a LoW in an allied detachment.)
Thanks for grabbing #2078
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:18
I've got the bulk of the Black Legion formations put in, so CSM won't be updated until after it's out
it's been less than a day, it doesn't have to be updated right this second :P
for 2078 I mean lol
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:19
Sounds good, is stuff working nicely for Chaos Daemons?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:20
I'll get all the rules from the daemon book in there, but do we really need all the rules from BRB in the file?
nm, I'll just get everything added, I don't want to have this conversation yet again in the future
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:24
Heh. I can get those copied in if you would like.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:25
I got it. I normally don't sync everything the moment I get it done. if anybody else updates a file I then have to go back through and either redo all of my work or redo what they did anyway. It's less work for me if they're just left for me to deal with.
Because if I do it for daemons, I'm gonna have to do it for all the other fucking Chaos books as well so I might as well do them all at once so people don't bitch.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:36
@cartag thanks for looking at it!
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:36
I still don't get why ALL the rules need to be in here, you should be expected to have a copy of the rule book also.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:37
To be able to share a copy with your opponent.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:38
Yeah, but the rules in the main rulebook, the 7E big rule book, they can look it up just as easily as referencing the sheet.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:38
If there are page numbers, sure.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:39
All this is going to do is bulk up the file and make it a larger download for people on mobile devices.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:39
I think that is a spurious concern.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:39
There's a god damn glossary with special rules
With an index that has page numbers. If you're going to be looking it up in the book anyway, what's the fucking point of putting everything from the BRB in it?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:39
I'm leaning towards no BrB rules personally. Those should be something that everyone has available.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:40
That in the Daemons file don't list page numbers.
In the new BS version, Jon is enabling rules at the game system level.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:40
Are you seriously telling me you need the page number in the BRB for the Daemon rule for example, when you can look in the back of the BRB and find the same fucking information?
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:41
I'm seriously telling you you're being a dick by resorting to swearing in response to iser feedback from another contributor.
User, even.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:42
Personally, we shouldn't do any page numbers unless we do them all.
Every book, every version, every page.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:43
I've changed my mind. I'm not adding rules from BRB. Your reasoning so that you can give your opponent a copy, when they should have a BRB also is bunk. I'll add things from C:CD, if you want BRB you're hosed.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:43
Ideally the rules should be listed with their source book, not page number.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:43
I'm all for the 'codex specific rules' not so much for the 'non-codex rules' especially if those will be available via cross linking in the new version of the software.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:43
We should also have no reason to omit certain rules.
We have no morality issue here. We're publishing stat blocks. We're already providing information that is otherwise gained by purchase.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:44
We'll be able to do game system level rules in 1.16. It can be done then. Until then, fuck it.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 20:44
By 'omitting rules' are you talking to 'omitting the rules text' or 'omitting the rule'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:44
The text @OftKilted
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:44
I agree with @OftKilted
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:44
If you wanted to be 100% on the up and up we would want to have only a list of unit names with no formation rules and requirements or point costs.
Non-Codex rules should 100% be published at the game system level in 1.16
codex rules should be published in each codex.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:45
I have no problem putting in codex rules
for the record
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:45
@Kohato points are not copyright-able. Forum policies are not reflections of actual copyright law.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:45
@capitaladot game rules are.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:46
I find it a waste of time to transcribe the entirety of text for all rules in BRB in all data files just because people don't want to look it up.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:46
And point costs for upgrades are directly related to game rules.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:46
In 1.16 when it's game system level, fine.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:46
The unit names are subject to trademark.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:46
Agreed @cartag there's no reason to put BRB in each codex.
But 100% I think they should be at base level in 1.16
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:46
And if I'm understanding properly, @capitaladot was wanting BRB rules in all files.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:47
That I see no reason to do when we're only months away from a release of 1.16
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:47
BRB in all game files is simply not happening.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:47
*I assume
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:47
Just page numbers and book title for BRB rules is fine. Most of the files I regulalry use have that.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:47
Again, no page numbers.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:47
dude, you can find page numbers in the back of the BRB, which you will be using anyway to look the damn rule up
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:48
There are different versions of rulebooks
each with different page counts.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:48
digital files have no set page numbers, it varies on device
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:48
Title, yes - I would agree with that (again, with 1.16, don't waste time on each codex when we'll just redo it all anyway)
Page number, no reason at all
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:50
I get the issue with ebook/iWhatever versions not having page numbers... but that doesn't mean page numbers aren't useful to most players (who still use dead tree books), especially books that have no electronic version (i.e. Forge World).
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:51
What about those who have varying versions of rulebooks?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:51
Big codex vs tiny ones
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:51
Take BRB - there are 2 versions, the Dark Vengeance book, and the big book.
Or the new tau codex.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:51
I think the broadest circulation version will be the most useful.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:52
So what is the broadest circulation?
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:52
BrB shares page numbers.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:52
You're telling me that the large 208 page rulebook shares page numbers with my dark vengeance book?
No.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:53
^^^^^
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:53
The three part rules? Yes, of course it does.
The Rules and the mini rules share page numbers.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:53
Have you seen the small DV rule book?
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:54
The page numbers are the same between The Rules (the white volume) and the mini rulebook.
I was initially surprised by that, as well.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:54
Well I'll be damned.
I take back that argument.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:55
Yeah... a bit of helpful laziness on the part of the design studio.
Sort of elegant.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 20:56
I still don't think page numbers are necessary, with digital versions being available with varying page numbers - but that brb argument is retracted.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 20:56
I sit corrected on that part. It's still not getting done before 1.16 though.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 20:57
I am happy to submit pull requests so long as I know they won't be intentionally clobbered. That's really why I reached out in the channel.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:00
Always good. There's usually plenty of argument here.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:01
My BRB ePub digital version has page number changes depending on what the font I use, and the iPad version has two versions.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:01
@OftKilted I can't argue with that; by the same token, a device with a search feature doesn't need page numbers listed.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:02
Ehhh, THAT argument I don't buy. Both BRB's have index.
The "Dead Tree" version of a search feature.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:02
And all of the 'Rules' are in the index.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:02
@Kohato that's what I've been saying. You either look at page number in BS or look at page number in index of BRB
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:02
Which is what we're talking about adding to the digital version.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:04
@cartag Yep, I agree with ya on all points now that I understand you fully. Title of rule source, sure - page numbers, no.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:05
I'm just an asshole and don't explain things well, forgetting not everybody is in my head while I'm talking.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:05
Hey, I'm the one that spent the better part of a week arguing with @OftKilted about single model units.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:07
I will plan to contribute game-system wide BRB rules once we get to 1.16. BS (and the great blue satan, AB) are both list creators and reference play aids.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:08
@Kohato And hopefully we will see answers to your completely incorrect view, and Chaos and Necrons will be vindicated ... cough wink
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:09
Haha, that, among other things if they actually publish that FAQ.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:09
I think I missed this discussion
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:09
I run a 2 Stormsurge stomp list for tau, I'd really love being able to shoot all 8 of its guns at differnt things each turn.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:09
My goal is not to obviate the need to own books (I own them all for the armies I play), but to make referencing them in game a less frequent occurrence ("never" is the sort of "the perfect" enemy of "good").
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:10
The short of it is: Start Collecting Formations and a single Necron codex formation list a single model as a requirement for a formation instead of a "Unit of X". Normally in a unit of X, the model can take more models at a point cost. The question is, can that single model in the formation buy more of itself per the rules for that model, or is the formation required to have 1 and only 1 model.
Necron Canoptek Harvest with 1 Spyder as an example.
It's been submitted by more than a couple people to the GW facebook thing a couple weeks ago. so hopefully we have a solid answer.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:12
I've interpreted one (Hellforged Hunting Pack) as being just 1 model in cases where they can buy additional. If you add Blood Slaughterers to it, you have the option to add up to two more, but they won't count toward the total of the HHP.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:12
Never ran that, but for the harvest (and start collecting Skitarii, which really started it all) I believe 1 model means 1 model.
Since in the necron book, another formation mentions a unit of stalkers, whereas both the stalker and spyder have a base unit size of 1.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:13
There is an issue in the Pale Courts "Disciples of Vaul" option (Vaul's Wrath platforms) that falls into this category.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:13
Does the formation state how many Infantry models need to be in the infantry units?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:13
Nope.
Just that it needs to be a 'Unit of X'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:13
@OftKilted no.
For harvest it is: 1 Canoptek Spyder.
That's the point, is that a typo MEANT to be "1 Unit of Canoptek Spyders"
or not.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:14
let me bring up the text of it
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:14
there is reference to '1 X and 1 Unit of y'
However the convoluted logic basically rolls that a model must always be in a unit.
So, even if I chose 1 X, it is still 1 'Unit' of X.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:15
HQs are units even though they're a single model
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:15
Yep. So that means that 1 model is 1 unit, and that 1 unit can purchase more. Context for the formation has grammar stating "when within 12" of THE spyder for this formation"
So RAI according to that would be 1 and only 1 spyder.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:16
But they don't typically have a 'Can take up to 2 more X' as part of their unit.
@Kohato 'Allegedly RAI' grin
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:16
Yea, there's no question that 1 model is a unit. It is, 100%
It is, if mentioned as 1 model required in a formation, is it allowed to purchase more per its unit rules.
That's the meat of it.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:16
Look at the Tau one, the Ethereal Honour Guard
it shows "1 unit of XV8 Crisis Battlesuits" and it starts off with just one
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:17
I seriously wonder if this presages an 8th edition where "units" cease to exist in favor of models.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:17
So, there is the crux, as 1 model, for these in question' is the MSU for the type, and the MSU can by RAW purchase more models, can you purchase more models, or not?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:17
doesn't specify how many, but does say unit.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:17
It seems to be a broad enough trend accross multiple publications.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:18
The battlesuits aren't vehicles though... hmmm
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:19
Single Vehicles are still units.
Vehicle units of more than 1 simply have modified coherency rules vs normal models.
4" vs 2"
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:19
Neither are Canoptek Spyders, They're monstrous creatures
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:20
Firespear Strike Force lists 1 Venerable Dreadnought, but you can bring more than one according to Codex. If it was a simple oversight on the Necron one, it would in theory be listed correctly in another formation list from Get Started
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:20
Can you though?
Other formations for Space Marines state 1 Unit of Venerable Dreadnaughts.
or 1 Unit of Dreatnaughts
Bottom one, it says "1 Venerable Dreadnought"
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:21
There has so long been such confusion between "model" and (army list/catalog entry), bridged by unit, with the ugly exception for killpoints wherein a joined character that is a separate army list entry is counted seperately.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:21
And that's where the question comes in, the 'Collectors Edition' shows the 'Canoptek Harvest' with multiple spyders in the infographic.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:21
Right, the necron one also says "1 Triarch Stalker"
Normally a unit of stalkers starts at 1, and can buy more.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:21
But this isn't the Canoptek Harvest, this is the Retribution Phalanx
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:21
But in the necron codex, Judicator Batallion formation lists spefically 1 UNIT of stalkers as a requirement.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:22
They both have the same issue @cartag
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:22
Same context though.
1 Model vs 1 Unit
whereas in other places for the same model, 1 Unit is mentioned.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:22
With the Getting Started ones, I would read them as listed, because they're intended to be the entire contents of that one box.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:22
so either it is line-wide typos.
or it is meant to be 1 model and only ever 1 model.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:22
if it was listed as "1 Unit of" instead of "1" I'd say you could add more
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:23
Exactly my thoughts :)
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:23
RAW 'models cannot fight alone and must be part of a unit'
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:23
The Tau one says "1 Unit of"
RAW a vehicle is a unit
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:23
So, defacto even 1 'model is 1 unit. Vehicle/non-vehicle/etc.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:24
Right, that was never in question.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:24
The question is, is there a restriction that limits that unit size to a maximum size of 1.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:24
Like I said it boils down to this: When listed as a formation requirement of 1 model and not 1 unit, are single models allowed to purchase additional models to the unit.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:24
In contradiction to the codex entry.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Apr 06 2016 21:24
The new Corsair list is quite weird about this. Barons occupy a list entry/formation selection, but cannot be fielded as independent units.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:25
What @Kohato said.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:25
I put my vote in the camp of if it lists 1 model, it's 1 model. If it instead said "1 unit of" you'd be able to purchase additional models.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:25
That's the base question I asked after I saw a couple for individual formations.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:25
Who did I piss off? XD
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:25
@OftKilted :smile:
You're on my side.
The right side of course.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:25
Sorry Oft lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:25
haha
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:25
I'm going with the mentality of the Tau one
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:26
(Only because being able to target out single models from a formation with special precision shot is nuts, and there is no defense)
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:26
it lists Crisis Battlesuits as "1 unit of" and it starts off as a single model.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:26
@OftKilted ? You could always do that.
Formations aren't treated as units as a whole.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:26
^
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:26
The Limited Edition infographic lied to us.
Yes, but it is a formation that can ONLY have 1 of a model, and no backups.
I want my backup spyders! It's not safe to go out alone!
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:27
Right. I'm confused on why precision shots is mentioned though
With multiple models or not, precision shots would let you do the same wound.
If I wanted Spyder A dead, and rolled a 6, I would be able to hit spyder A if it's alone or if there are 2 others with it.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:28
Stuff that can explicitly target the spyder. As it isn't a 'character'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:28
<Legitamate confused here, example?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:29
So, you just shot out spyder A. I have backup spyder B. And the wraith regeneration party goes on.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:29
Right.
Why does precision shots matter in that scenario
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:29
In that scenario, I have a backup. There is no issue. You're having to take out spyder A, and Spyder B. And potentially Spyder c
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:30
Wouldn't it be better to run a separate listing of Spyders then? So overflow wounds don't go through to the next one?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:30
Right. Again though, why does precision shots matter.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:30
They aren't part of the formation.
So, the Wraiths don't get the adaptive programming benefit.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:30
I see why you would want additional spyders in the unit (not that that's correct :p)
I don't see how precision shots change anything if there is 1 or 3 spyders.
If anything precision shots hurts you more if there are more than 1
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:31
ignore precision shots. Imagine being able to attack one specific model in the formation.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:31
its entirely useless if there is only 1 model
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:31
You can always attack one specific model in the formation
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:32
^
If you have 1 or 3 spyders, I can still target that unit.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:32
the formation is not a unit as a whole, you don't need to keep cohesion between all the models, you could have the spyder on the completely opposite side of the table and still be fine
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:32
I see why you want more than 1. but that makes no difference on my ability to target the actual unit
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:32
Not target the unit, but with 1 model, all wounds from the wound pool get assigned to one model.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:33
They do that when you shoot a unit of 3 models too ...
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:33
And even if there were three models in it, all wounds would continue to go to one model until it was dead
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:33
until it dies
then they flow over.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:33
With multiple models in a unit, especially in CC, it is possible that another model will be available to 'pass those off to'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:33
Ahh, CC is a different case entirely
we're talking about targeting
with shooting
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:34
In either case, once a model has a Wound allocated to it during an Initiative step, you
must continue to allocate Wounds to it until it is either removed as a casualty or the
Wound pool is empty. Note that all of the models in the target unit may be hit,
wounded and removed as casualties during an Initiative step, including those
that are not engaged. You can speed this process up by allocating Wounds in groups
(see Fast Dice).
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:35
^
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:35
So once one spyder got a wound in the Assault phase, it would continue to have wounds assigned to it until it was dead
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:35
In the same initiative step at least.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:35
^
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:35
CC is different, because in CC, a single wound pool has to get allocated to a single model. But you can 'pass around the hurt' for multiple wound models, as there are 'multiple targets'.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:35
That's copied from the BRB in the Assault phase section
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:35
you can't pass them around in shooting either
Unless they are 100% equadistant from the gun
and even then all hits from the same gun go to the same model.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:36
blob
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:38
The issue is that for any given wound pool there are many models competing to die first.
The issue is that this is only based on 'Wound pools being empty'
So, with enough dice in a single wound pool, sure.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:41
I'm utterly confused now at the point you're trying to make. Try explaining it in as much detail as possible so we know what you're referencing when you say "picking out a single model in a formation," including if you mean in CC or shooting
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:41
CC.
Or if you are being shot at from different directions. (by different groups)
If there is only one model in the unit, then it gets all the wounds.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:42
These are going to have different answers depending on which you are meaning
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:42
So, Unit A shoots the spyders from the front. Wounds would be taken from that model.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:42
In CC, if a model takes damage in an initiative step, ALL other wounds that happen to its unit during the same I step go to the model until it is dead
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:42
Or the wound pool is empty.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:43
No.
Look at the text above
wait
removed as casualty or wound pool is empty
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:43
Right until the wound pool is empty
What oft is saying
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:43
Apparently my reading comprehension is off today
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:44
is if he has more than 1 spyder
and it lives past the first initative step
he can allocate the next pool to another spyder
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:44
Once the wound pool is empty the process is started again, and as everyone is in base to base contact and potentially dead, I can 'wound shenanigans' and assign another spyder to 'tank this wound pool'
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:44
I need to remember that for my Khornedogs
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:44
"Spreading them around" which is true. And I understand why you would want that. Doesn't mean it's correct :p
Reanimation on wraiths is broken enough as it is when it's 1 spyder providing it
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:45
this is what I get for learning the rules from my group who memorized everything from 6E and not reading myself when I should
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:45
@Kohato "Lots of stuff is broke" like Tau markerlights.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:46
What, you don't like that your flyer means jack crap to my drone net with a buffmander?
:smile:
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:46
Tau Markerlights are the least of what is broke in 40k right now.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:46
If we're looking at shooting, and target priority, as none of them are characters, it is possible that I can 'spread wounds around' based on which unit is firing at them.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:46
You cannot.
You do not control who takes wounds in shooting
at all
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:46
they fire "as a single unit"
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:46
If they're shooting from different sides.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:46
It is based on distance.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:47
so it's a single wound pool, if you're talking about Coordinated Firepower
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:47
@Kohato I think I see what he's talking about
S1 ---------- Spyders ---------- S2
S1, S2 = shooting unit 1 and 2
we'll say the spyders are O O , each one is 6" from the closest model in the respective shooting unit
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:48
If all I have is one spyder, then it tanks everything. And decreases the overall survivability of the unit in the formation.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:48
so S1 ------ O O ------ S2
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:48
Right, I understand him now
That's the same for any unit giving buffs though, of course you want more.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:48
if 2 models are tied for closest, then the players would agree to nominate one model to be the closest.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:49
So, MSU for Canoptek Spyders = 1. (Can take up to 2 more spyders)
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:49
in that case though, you would assign wounds from each shooting unit to the model that is closest
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:49
and "unit" is the key word in that last statement
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:49
Not going off of how the rules are understood, but looking at the book right now
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:49
@efalsken if you ever run into a situation where the unit of spyders is the same distance from 2 different shooting units and equadistant from each other I want a photo.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:49
'Models cannot go into battle alone, and they must fight in a unit'
So, 1 model = 1 unit.
So, Unit of 1. Units can get 2 more of model x, increasing model size.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:50
Right, 1 model is 1 unit - not in question at all. never has been.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:50
It's happened where 2 models are equidistant to different models of a shooting unit. Happens all the time. multiple shooting units are resolved sequentially so it's probably not a problem. Except in the case of Coordinated Firepower.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:51
Units can add 2 models as upgrades.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:51
Right, Again - not a question
The question is when a formation is listed as a single model - is the requirement for that formation, a single model.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:51
So, is the 1 X a 'maximum size restriction?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:52
Or if you were to add models to it, it would cease to be the formation and revert to the original orginzational units.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:52
Yep. The infographic for the Canoptek Harvest shows 3 spyders.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:52
infographic also shows an incorrect number of scarabs if I remember right
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:52
infographics aren't datasheets
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:52
you cannot argue that as proof.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:54
the C:SM book lists things that can have multiple models but start as 1 (like the dreadnoughts) as "1 unit of" instead of "1"
for some of them
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:55
and the books are inconsistent.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:55
So, is it sloppy editing? Bad assumptions, lack of proper size restrictions?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:55
for what, the art?
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:55
RAW, only 1 model. RAI, could possibly be more
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:55
The art is just art, not rules.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:55
are we still arguing the formation that shows 1 of X instead of 1 unit of Xs?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:55
@cartag asked.
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 21:55
We came back to it, I missed it and added my two cents in
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:56
omg. you guys really need to get a room. ... a different chat room.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 21:56
haha
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:56
While we're at it, Space Marine Chapter Relics should be limited to only 1.
coughs
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 21:56
lol
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 21:58
And KDK Aspiring Chaos Space Marine Champions should not be made to take both a Boltgun, and a combi-flamer at the same time. Why can they only swap out melee and pistols, instead of being able to swap out their boltgun for a combi-flamer/plasma/melta?
Modeling both the Boltgun, and the Combi-weapon at the same time really russles my jimmies.
Can't use the same aspiring champion for both standard Chaos Space Marines, and the KDK armies ...
CSM, 'Any Weapon' can be swapped for one from the ranged list ... 'KDK ... 'Pistol and CC weapon ...'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 22:00
What's that I hear? Whisper in the wind: Magnets!
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 22:01
magnetizing 2 boltgun type weapons to attach to the csm aspiring champions? in addition to the CC weapon?
because he gets both.
(Mind you he's the only model that gets all three, boltgun, bolt pistol and CC weapon and can take from the ranged weapons list)
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 22:03
I didn't say it would be efficient.
But can't use is incorrect :)
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 22:03
Tau sympathizer.
See how it is, trying to hold down chaos ...
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 22:04
I have a ghostkeel, 3 riptides, 2 stormsurges, 2 commanders, and 12 crisis suits. :p
I like magnets.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 22:04
he was trying to get me to modify the eldar codex to prevent Autarchs taking 2 of the same weapon too, even though it's rules-legal. lol.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 22:04
Yeah ... Dark Eldar get messy like that too.
and on that note, I think I need a beer.
Eric Falsken
@efalsken
Apr 06 2016 22:05
beer needed here too
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 22:07
Maybe a Harry's Hard Orange Soda ...they're pretty good ....
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 22:07
Lightweights.
I go straight for a long island.
or 3.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 06 2016 22:08
See. I knew tau sympathizers were odd! ;-)
And on that note, have a great evening @Kohato drink one for me :-)
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 06 2016 22:10
g'night
cartag
@cartag
Apr 06 2016 23:48
I miss beer. I can't drink because of my meds.
I do have medicinal weed though, so I think I'm still coming out ahead.