These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

6th
Sep 2016
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 00:55
Working on Traitor's Hate leaks
They didn't do a damn thing to change Kharn... no Eternal Warrior and he didn't get his 2+ save back
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Sep 06 2016 01:22
Haven't looked at the leak yet. How did it change chaos in general?
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 01:23
We got some good shit, and a Decurion now
Predators and Vindcators can be brought in squads
Our Decurion has 3 Core choices, 1 Command, and 10 Aux. Limits are 1+ Core, 0-5 Command, and 1+ Aux
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Sep 06 2016 01:26
Sounds good.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 01:28
The Lost and the Damned formation is tight, 1 Dark Apostle, 4-9 units of Cultists. Any time a unit is destroyed, an identical one is put in reserves, and they have Zealot if within 6" of the DA
And the ones that come back have Outflank
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:20
Poor, poor Orks, and IG with their shitty decurions. I was kinda hoping Chaos would get an unwieldy one too, so that the GW design philosophy Stayed consistent that Decurions are only for really big Apoc games.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:21
Decurions are very usable in regular sized games, I regularly use the Blood Host in my KDK army
Hell, I can fit a Blood Host in a 1000 pt list
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:26
I know, and then the design philosophy switched for the ORK and IG decurions. The core chouses are gigantic without much flex. They were clearly designed for 2500 point games and bigger. They don't really function at 1850.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:28
So just bring the formations
Also, you can probably clean up a lot of the Ork listings for Aux choices, things like "Speshulists" can be simplified down to one entry, you pick one unit from the list. It helps keep things tidy when trying to navigate it, especially on mobile
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:33
The Ork formations aren't very good. They all contain nerfs to mob rule, and usually that plus other restrictions make playing Orks from a CAD better in most cases.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:34
Do you have an example for mob rule nerfs? None of the special rules are in the data file
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:35
you get +2 on the chart.
2 and 3 are the good results on the chart. 4+ only works if you have more than 10 Orks.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:38
Would the +2 take it off the chart if you rolled a 5 or 6?
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:39
Yes. But GW helpfully answered what to do with that in the latest Draft FAQ.
Only about 2 years after the problem got created.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:40
So on a 5 or 6 it wouldn't cause any casualties at all, making your odds better than they were before
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:40
You treat anything 4+ as the 4-6 (aka the worst result).
That isn't how anyone has ever played it.
In fact, it was an obvious typo from the start. GW always meant it to be -2 on the chart because the 1 result rewards you for being in CC.
But the typo made it into the book, and then they reprinted the book and left the typo in.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:43
I just looked at the first draft of FAQ, and it says it was intended to add 2
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:43
Indeed.
Doubling down on the typo.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:44
That's not a typo though if you read the wording of it, the spirit of why it's done that way in the first place
They are supposed to be more disciplined, so failing the check would have harsher penalties. That's not a typo, that's intended
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:45
Wait, so a more disciplined unit is more likely to run away?
Because that is how the +2 functions
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:45
No, a more disciplined unit would suffer casualties for their men tucking their tail to run
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:45
But that isn't how it works.
You just fail more often.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:46
This has nothing at all to do with the check, just what happens after you've already failed your Morale or Pinning test
As in, the unit suffers harsher penalties for failing the morale check in the first place
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:47
Like if you have a unit of 8 Ork Boyz and a Nob in CC, and you fail your leadership test, using an Ork CAD, mob rule will save you 3/6 times. If you are using a Ghaz formation it only saves you 1/6 times.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:47
It's not a leadership check, it specifically states Morale or Pinning, that's it.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:47
That is also a problem. It doesn't work on fear.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:47
So if you fail the test (unit scared) they suffer harsher penalties because they're supposed to be more disciplined
if you fail a Fear test it doesn't set off the Mob Rule
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:49
The +2 on the table makes you more likely to fail. As I said above you are 3 times as likely to fail in the situation where mob rule comes up most often.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:49
But it doesn't affect if you make the check in the first place, only if you fail it
It does not, in any way, affect the Morale or Pinning test you have to pass.
What it does affect is the ramifications of failing that check/test
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:50
So, Orks take a moral check. Leadership 7. They lose combat by 3, so now they need to take a LD 4 test.
In an Ork CAD you are going to make that test 3/6 times. In the Ghaz suppliment you are going to make it only 1/6 times.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:51
The LD4 test IS IN NO WAY AFFECTED BY THE MOB RULE
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:52
No. Mob rule has nothing to do with the test.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:52
What it does affect is what happens if you do fail it, that's my fucking point
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:52
But what comes after the test is a 2nd test to see if mob rule saves you.
It will save you less often when using the Ghaz formations, which is one of the reasons most Ork players prefer using CAD's.
The effect of playing with the Ghaz formations is Orks that run away much, much more frequently
That doesn't seem like an army that is more disciplined to me.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:54
They maintain discipline the same way IG does, by shooting the ones that get out of line
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:55
If we could do that it would be fucking great. We can't. Got to roll on a table, and pretty often the table won't allow us to do that.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:55
did you even read the text on Da Boss Is Watchin', to see why it's done that way in teh first place
You also get to off set it by getting Hammer of Wrath if you're bringing the decurion and can Waaagh every turn
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:58
Here is the text: "The Orks of Waaagh! Ghazghkull are known for their unusual levels of discipline, instilled if not by Ghazhkull himself, then by his subordinates. These canny leaders have been subjected to, or have witnessed enough of the Big Boss' Clobberings to know better than to let the lads get too carried away, and will crack heads even harder to keep them in line"
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:59
I know what it says.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 02:59
What part of that text make you think the Orks are more likely to run away from combat?
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 02:59
"and will crack heads even harder to keep them in line"
That means, if they fail the morale or pinning test (not being kept in line) they do even more to keep them in line
thus the elevated casualties from it
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:00
That part of the rule isn't in debate. I'm fine with that. In fact make it 3D6, and I'd still like it more than +2 on the chart.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:00
You'd rather have 3D6 roll on a 1-6 table than a +2?
Do you have any idea what little sense that makes?
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:01
No. I'd rather take 3D6 S4 AP- hits.
Rather than not be able to take hits, and instead run away and get swept
4-6 on mob rule only works if there are 10 or more Orks in your unit. Otherwise you just run away.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:06
If the Mob rule nerf allowed a 4-6 to work even if there were fewer than 10 Orks then I'd be thrilled about it, and call it a buff instead of a nerf. But it doesn't.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:08
So to use the decurion effectively you'd want to actually play it as a horde army
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:08
It requires 6 squads of boyz, 1 Squad of Gretchin, and 1 squad of Nobz.
So let's say I want to do hoards to make the Mob rule suck less. So I take 6 x 20 Orks, and the Nobz are Shit out of Luck because their max unit size is 9.
But that is going to be at least a 140 model count army.
I've taken the Orkurion to a few tourneys, but I always do so running Trukk boyz, and just eating the mob rule penalty.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:12
Nobz are also getting 5 attacks each if they do the charging. While each individual hit has low likelihood of causing a wound, strength in numbers are your friend
Even at lowest unit size, that's 54 points. If you cause decent wounds in first round of combat after charging, they've earned their keep, even if they all get wiped out
they're a cheap unit
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:14
I'm not exactly sure where you are coming from. Are you just theory crafting here? Have you ever seen Nobz on the table?
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:14
And max size is 10, one boss nob and 9 nobz
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:14
But if you are taking a leadership it means you lost 1.
I do just fine with my Orks. I'm the top ranked Ork player in the ITC. I'm somewhere in the 50's out of 3,000 or more players. I've shed my tears over how much the Ork codex, and the Ghaz supplement sucks.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:16
It means you caused fewer wounds than your opponent did
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:17
What I'm not done bitching about is the lack of a consistant design philosophy from GW. The Chaos Decurion is notably different philosophy than the Ork or IG ones.
cartag
@cartag
Sep 06 2016 03:19
By all means, bitch away then
It may be more productive to bitch to somebody that gives a fuck though.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:23
I would like to redo the Ork formations in the datafile at some point. Back when I worked on it in the pre-gethub days I had all the special rules and made more use of shared entries, but now that I've just taken it over it seems that someone stripped those out at some point.
I'll definitely add them in for BS2 if not sooner, but I've just taken it over again, and didn't want to rework it too much.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Sep 06 2016 03:25
Bs2 has all base special rules in gst. So that saves work there.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Sep 06 2016 03:27
I need to dig into it at some point. Maybe Next week.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Sep 06 2016 03:51
....circles. that is all.