These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

11th
Jun 2017
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:00
I'm about to put up a PSA bugrep.
Joshua137
@Joshua137
Jun 11 2017 00:04
I see,thank you
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:31
#3823
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 00:32
SW ready for checking
I'm sure there's quite a bit of optimising to do as this is the first major cat I've worked on. But it's 1:30am and i have a toddlers birthday party to throw tomorrow so i need to go bed.
The major focus was getting all the data in to start with :)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:50
hey @GenWilhelm i'm still getting those broken link errors on custodes/SoS
or @Kohato
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 00:51
Stop being bad
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:51
it's not me i swear lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 00:51
Did you clear out the category links?
Cause I haven't touched it yet
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:52
you can't on .01.87
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 00:52
Just got out of chillis
No in xml
Backspace
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:52
no i didn't.
i thought @GenWilhelm did
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 00:52
That'd probably do it.
Ah. No clue. I haven't touched it yet :(
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 00:53
well if you can when you're home that'd be awesome.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 00:55
Sure
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 11 2017 01:03
oh, cartag reverted the commit
i guess i'll do it again
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 11 2017 01:10
there you go, @alphalas
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 01:11
dankeschoen again
yey
Leanden
@Leanden
Jun 11 2017 10:01
Im just wondering, shouldnt we amalgamate all the chaos and imperium into two single cats?
As now you can fill your force org with units from just matching keywords
and then have a filter to change the core keyword for the army list in case you want to restrict it for bonus CP
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 10:03
@Leanden you can still do that while they're separated by adding the detachment you want from one of the cats, then adding the same detachment into the first one with a different cat. It validates like it's a single detachment.
Leanden
@Leanden
Jun 11 2017 10:04
Ah i see, thats why battlescribe was asking me whoch detachment is the parent detachment. Got it
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 10:05
downside is that Cartag is going to be forever having to reply to issues posts of people asking the same question :)
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 10:27
Lol
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 10:29
I suspect the majority of BS users won't know it's possible to add detachments as children to other detachments
i didnt, till Cartag told me :)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 11 2017 10:32
We could really use BattleScribe showing some kind of README for each system...
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:09
@Thairne you taking DA bugs yet?
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:16
just in case BSData/wh40k#3830
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 12:24
yes ofc I am
however this is not a bug, since its RAW
unless you can show me the section that actually invalidates that? ;)
its actually the reason I structured the weapons as they are now, since you can give your HW terminator a Storm Shield for safety and have it represented in your list
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 12:28
@cartag sorry :( seems that some of the issues you recently fixed in the CSM cat are present in the DG and TS cats. I've added an issues thread with them, it's just a few points costs issues.
Although I should note, I've not updated the files today so you may have fixed some of this already
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:39
in order to take lightning claws, they replace all weapons on the model
same with TH/SS
agreed RAW you add the heavy weapon to the stormbolter/powerfist which, while silly, is RAW
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 12:42
if you take it first.
Order of operations is integral here, nothing stops you from exchanging, then taking
our v7 had you replace the SB for the heavy weapon which prevented this from occuring
that is no longer the case
ergo - no bug
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:43
so long as you're aware of it, I won't argue :)
i disagree on the interpretation, but it's your cat
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 12:45
People went with this "order of operation" when they loaded their DW up with shotguns
and that got shot down in an faq
Pretty sure the intent is that when something says "replace all of its weapons", that it literally re
places all of its weapons, regardless of what order you claim you did things in
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:51
I'd insist it was WYSIWYG too. Two claws and an assault cannon? OK, show them on the model
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 12:52
Silly GW. The dataslate in the rulebook doesn't even show the wargear options panel, so there is no explanation on how to use them. Seems to me that you can only apply one of those options to any one model, period. But since they haven't stated that or anything else anywhere (or at least anywhere that I can find) we get shenanigans like this.
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 12:53
problem is though @Thairne you're forcing people to pay points for both options, which is clearly not RAI and will guaranteed be FAQd, why bother? It breaks the cat for all but the most hardcore WAAC neckbeard
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 12:56
As far as I'm concerned all they have to do is state something like "Any eligible model with a standard loadout can chose one option from the Wargear Options panel" in the part of the rulebook where they go through the different options on a datasheet.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 12:58
WYSIWYG is less of a problem really; GW produce models where the guy is holding a pistol and a sword with a bolter on on their backpack or hanging off a chain or whatever. So while it would clearly be impossible for someone with 2 claws to hold and fire it.... you could model it so it had all of them :)
but previous FAQ's have proved that order of operation when selecting wargear does not apply
so if someone says "replaces ALL" of something, then thats what it does
something^
so you could take a heavy weapon and the claws, pay for them all, but the claws would replace all other weapons removing the heavy weapon you just paid for and costing you points for nothing :)
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 13:07
I'm trying to put 1000 points of DA together for friday night, and I have to manually deduct the cost of a SB because of this. It's kinda silly.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 13:11
Devils advocate, this is 8e
Old FAQ do not apply
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 13:13
So here's the thing @miproductions
Even discounting order of operations
Wargear lists like "Heavy Weapon" lists no longer say you replace a weapon.
So the datasheet simply says "Take"
You can take a heavy weapon. End of story
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 13:14
We follow RAW here to prevent arguments
Case In point - cawl/Cel's relic lists - if you had Cawl or Cel in a bug list, a Tyranid Prime had access to their relics, RAW.
Dumb as shit - even the WH40k FB dudes said it was dumb, but it was RAW
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 13:27
I have no issue with RAW. This is different though - it's based on one interpretation of RAW, which is very very arguable and relies on a previously discredited thought process
and breaks the cat for normals
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 13:30
You can take an assault cannon while keeping power fist and sword
How is that any less believable on the model
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 13:31
it' not. but it doesn't rely on mental gymnastics with operation order
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 13:35
Gymnastics?
You read from top to bottom
In fact that's how nearly all languages are taught
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 13:37
where do the rules say that you can break rules depending on the order they appear?
you put a LC/AC model on the table, you're breaking the rule about LCs.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 13:39
What rule?
James
@miproductions
Jun 11 2017 13:40
it's ok, I just realised I don't care enough. I'll just use excel until it's FAQed
nn
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 13:42
I'm serious. What rule?
The LC profile says nothing to the effect of that being illegal
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 13:54
It isn't an issue of the heavy weapon replacing another weapon
its that it says a model may replace ALL of it's weapon with a pair of claws
while you very well take a heavy weapon, it would simply be replaced by the claws
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 14:05
That is fair. That does fall in line with the old ordinance rule
Can't fire non ordinance then ordinance to get around it
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:07
yeh
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 14:32
okay, so just checking, if an entry has no options, all its wargear should be collective, so it stacks like this:
2017-06-11_15-30-55.png
Daniel Mudd
@btjmp
Jun 11 2017 14:32
Looks good to me
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 14:32
2017-06-11_15-32-32.png
and that's the way it looks in the roster
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:33
and how would Cyclone Missile Launchers then work?
You can stack it on the model with twin lightning claws
should we forbid that as well and invalidate build models?
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:34
8th edition has invalided loads of model builds
invalidated^
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:35
Even if you ignore order of operations:
A Deathwing terminator has a power fist and a storm bolter.
Unarguably:
You can take a heavy weapon.
Done.
No need to replace ANYTHING.
rules allow it. End of story.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 14:35
I internalized the boltgun into the AdMin data file as the one in the gst is not collective (but bolt pistols and frag/krak are), but didn't want to update the gst as #3791 is still in discussion
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:35
you end up with fist, storm bolter and whatever you took from the hw list.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:35
If it says "model may take" then they can take it without needing to remove something else
thats 100% clear
the issues is when a wargear option says "may replace all of its weapons"
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:37
yes and no.
You still end up with an assault cannon and a storm bolter with a power fist
how do you model that?
you still pay points for the storm bolter
how to get around that?
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:37
models exist directly from GW with weapons not in the models hands
but the stat sheet saying they have them
i.e. modelled holding a pistol and sword with a bolter on their back
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 14:38
like the tau do, put the assault cannon on the backpack
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:38
oh so thats not a problem
cool.
So I did it right in view of that argument
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:38
yeh
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:40
might very well be RAI that you cannot take a Cyclone and a Shield.
But it is not RAW.
I learned the hard way that RAI is not always wanted, even if its just an option. The other way around then also exists.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:40
but a pair of claws replaces all the models other weapons, i guess the fluff being that if your replace both your hands with huge power enhanced shredding claws then you kinda cant operate guns any more
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:40
I dont care about fluff
the rules allow it
we model the rules
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:40
the rules dont allow it
a pair of claws replaces all of the models other weapons
it says so, on thje option to take claws
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:41
yes
you do that
process has ended
then you take an item from the list
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:41
thats not how it works
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:41
thats your interpretation
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:41
everything in that list happens at the same time
its not mine
its GW's
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:41
show me where it is written in the rules
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:41
every FAQ relating to this type of issues has gone the same way
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:41
otherwise it is your interpretation
I can pull up 5th ed faq that says you cant do X
should I take these into consideration or those for 8th?
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:42
find me where in the rules it says the process ends like you suggest
when the rule, as written, states "replaces all of the models weapons" then i think its pretty damn clear
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:42
then do that
noone prevents you from NOT using a heavy weapon on that one guy
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:43
aye
and the rules prevent you from taking one
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:43
they dont
we wait for an FAQ and do as they say
and this discussion ends here.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:43
or you just do what the rule says
and replace all of the weapons
ya know... like it says
in the rules
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 14:46
Seems you're both right, and both wrong as well. You both can't point to a rule that specifically states your interpretation is the right one, so we indeed will have to wait for an faq to settle this. Fwiw I think Skonk's view is correct, but that's neither here nor there because the rules don't back it up unambiguously.
Perhaps ask WarhammerTV come their nexy batrep on monday.
*next
They might pick up on it.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:49
aye
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 11 2017 14:49
I will change it within 2 minutes of me being aware of an official ruling
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 14:49
I know, that's pretty clear.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:57
have all noticed the core rule about re-rolls?
being before modifiers
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 14:57
I saw, yeah.
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 14:58
that's going to be a constant thorn our sides when we play; so easy to forget and do it wrong
and lot of people simply wont realise the implications of what it's saying
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:00
Yeah
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 15:00
@alphalas i've finished #3814 just borked my local so fixing that before i commit, should i assign it to myself?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:01
+3 to hit, rerolling - rolla couple 2's, reroll get all 3s; -1 means all those hits are missed
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 15:01
The Warhammer TV guys probably won't answer it because the rules aren't out. So how would you know this. Towing the corporate line etc
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:01
Go for it clover
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 15:02
its more than that
3+ to hit
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:02
I'm riding with my dad, son, and gf up to see a NASCAR race tonight
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 15:02
you roll all 3's
you cant reroll cos they are hits before modifiers
then you take the -1
so all 3 miss
you simply couldn't reroll them at all
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:02
Yup true also
It's gunna take getting use to
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 15:03
yeh
also gonna cause some salt
yay i have rerolls.... yeh but you didnt really miss so u cant reroll em lol
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 11 2017 15:04
And -1 also affects exploding dice too
My vindicare rolls a 6 to wound, but a shadowseer has his -1 aura, so I actually only rolled a 5, so it's only d3 damage
But that also works the other way - something is giving said vindicare shooting at a warboss a +1 - now it's d6 damage on a 5 or 6
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 15:06
yeh
same with rerolls i guess
if the hit being a 6 matters
you can miss, hit with the +1 but you could chose to reroll it (cos it was a miss before the +1) to to roll a 5 or 6 for the bonus from rolls of 6
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 15:08
sorry, another silly question, now i committed a fix for #3814 should i close it or do i need to wait for it to be re-tested?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 11 2017 15:14
if you believe you've fixed the issue, go ahead and close it
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 11 2017 15:15
okay, thanks :thumbsup:
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jun 11 2017 17:06
... Any... Craftworld bugs yet...? I can't believe we did that good of a job there is nothing to report... (not that I'm complaining of course, if there are no bugs then happy days!) :smile:
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 17:20
:+1: similar for SW
Ill be giving it a first passover, verification check tonight now everything is in there.
I'm sure there's stuff I can make better. If there's no bugs
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 17:26
Also need to check it all complies with the best practices
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 17:28
I'm just back from work. Need to take care of my kid and once he's in bed I'll start in on the Craftworld cat.
Jon Taylor
@Jonskichov
Jun 11 2017 17:28
2.01.01 is done, just waiting for Apple approval before full release
it's on the GitHub page: https://github.com/BattleScribe/Desktop-Alphas/issues/133#issuecomment-307643637
And Android beta channel: https://play.google.com/apps/testing/net.battlescribe.mobile.rostereditor
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jun 11 2017 17:39
@Owlsbane, that's cool, I just wondered if anyone had found anything :smile:
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 17:41
Nobody's interested in space elves it seems.
Daniel Mudd
@btjmp
Jun 11 2017 17:42
Had a couple for the Tau file, but I think they're all resolved
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jun 11 2017 17:46
I'm not complaining, if no one reports anything I'll just sit here twiddling my thumbs... :wink:
James
@skonk
Jun 11 2017 17:47
I've mainly been looking at the chaos files but i do own Tau and Necron armies; will have a poke at those at some point
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 19:26
@FarseerVeraenthis Well, for one thing, the description for the special abilities of the Phoenix Lords and their aspects still use the aspect's description as a template. That means the descriptions for the Lords use plural form instead of singular.
I'll put the rest up in an issue :wink:
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 11 2017 22:23
@FarseerVeraenthis Checked all for typo's/spelling and stats, proceeding to check for points.
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 11 2017 22:43
@penguin20000 I just downloaded space wolves version 7 to help validate it. All entries are marked with * and designer notes on points costs. Is that the latest version?
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 22:44
yeah i need to tidy those
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 11 2017 22:45
OK. I'll take a look, and send over some feedback.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 11 2017 22:45
oh wow, just coincedence i opened Gitter as you asked that question
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 11 2017 23:31
Necrons are done and ready.
WikkedTiki
@WikkedTiki
Jun 11 2017 23:36
Hey guys, looking to help look over the files.
Can anyone guide me through the download and branch change? I am very new to this scene
WikkedTiki
@WikkedTiki
Jun 11 2017 23:53
nevermind got it