These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

19th
Jun 2017
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 00:06
I'm halfway through the FW Chaos book and I don't want to do any more :/
24 units left to go and I'll be finished
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 00:06
Tackling the imperium book... the sheer number of random unique weapons is staggering
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 00:09
Yeah I'm glad it only added 4 units to my cats so far
Not looking forward to am
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 00:11
I don't think I can manage Chaos solo for much longer... then again, once it's all in it'll be way easier
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 00:24
Sorry got another dumb question - this one is more about how stuff has been organised since BS2.
So I have the FW astartes stuff in a separate cat. What is the best way to make the stuff available to players making a space marine army?
Is this done via the SM catalogue?
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 00:25
they add it like a secondary force in a detachment like they would for any other secondary force
#77 I think it is
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 00:26
Yeah so nothing special - just make it like a normal cat
Yup #77
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 19 2017 00:26
^ multiple forces that contribute to a single detachment
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 00:27
Righto, just finished the Deimos Predator and it's bazillion custom weapon options.
I linked over what existed, and made new entries for the exotic FW stuff
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 01:26
#77 also is missing one of the how-to pictures, hosting site failure
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 02:38
@/all pushing a release
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 19 2017 05:18
Question ,where does BS store it's information on favourites? Seems to be cat-related, but where does it keep it? Just so I know what to put aside if I ever have to do a clean install.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 19 2017 05:21
there's an xml file in the settings folder called favourites
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Jun 19 2017 05:22
Duh, simple. Ta, thanks for the help :smile:
GitArdnutz
@GitArdnutz
Jun 19 2017 06:22

In a unit with a small number of permitted model loadouts, wouldn't it be easier to add/subtract models via spinners?
e.g. Space Marine Scouts
Each Scout comes with a boltgun, but can replace it with a combat knife, shotgun, or sniper rifle
If you make each version a spinner then your output looks like:
Space Marine Scouts [total pts]
5 x Scout w/ Boltgun [55pts]
5 x Bolt Pistol
5 x Boltgun
5 x Frag & Krak Grenades
2 x Scout w/ Sniper Rifle [30pts]
2 x Bolt Pistol
2 x Sniper Rifle [8 pts]
2 x Frag & Krak Grenades

This is a lot easier to create & equip a unit, and a lot easier to read on the printout, than the current structure where you have to add and equip each scout individually and they then list individually, even though they might all be identical (e.g. unit comprising Sgt plus 5 x scouts with sniper rifles).

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 07:10
...I have too many marines
and not enough transports for them
this is what I get for playing HH ravens
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 19 2017 07:34
that's how it was set up for 7th edition @GitArdnutz, its just down to how the author decided to implement it
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 09:44
I swear to god
the next one that reports skitarii as bugged will get a boot to the head
tekton
@tekton
Jun 19 2017 09:45
@Thairne yes please; I have extra boots to lend to this!
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 09:46
I raise the stakes to boots then
but make sure the boot is not added as a squad member and has the right points cost!
tekton
@tekton
Jun 19 2017 09:46
lol
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 10:01
Awesome my FW Astartes Index book just got delivered
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 10:49
#228 cmon guys... cmon.
if I would be unfortunate enough to work in support irl... I'd be a suicide victim.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 10:58
I'd probably be a serial killer
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 10:59
No no no
Mass murderer
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 10:59
Same difference
:)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 10:59
Nah serial killers tend to only kill one at a time
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 10:59
"time" can be seconds
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:00
LOL
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 11:00
well unless you have all the people reporting bugs in the same place...
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:00
so isnt a mass murderer automatically a serial killer with very short intevals?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:00
You have a good point
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:00
thats the kind of question that keeps me awake at night
I still lay wide awake asking myself:
are dragons sad because they cant blow out candles?!
THE QUESTION CONSUMES ME!
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:02
I mean technically the breath weapon would probably result in an extinguished candle, one way or the other
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:02
Ok so what's the idea with naming Forge World/Imperial Armour catalogues? FW prefix looks bad. Suffix would be probably better. Any other ideas? Maybe IA for imperial armour? Enclosed within [] (i.e. [FW] or [IA])?
I see a start for FW astartes
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:03
not sure if brackets could cause problems on different OS?
IA is kind of bad once they come out with books that do not have that name... hm...
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:04
square sure won't
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:04
We could just call them the same as the books - removes any kind of confusion on what is what and what is in it
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:04
But we don't put whole book in a cat
Do we?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:05
we don't? I thought that's what we do... one cat per book
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:05
smaller faction add-ins get integrated
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:05
oh I see
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:05
So Tau units from IA get into Tau catalogue - not that much
I think we might need an official announcement then :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:07
Lets see... we should start with them being called in the main faction they're in - so sorting with all that "Imperium" and "Chaos" still works
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:08
Wouldn't it be best to sort by keyword?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:08
tbh I would just go "Imperium - Index Astartes" and call it a day.
Those books that get integrated do not have an own cat, so no worries about naming them
Those that do get their own - Faction + name of book
so you'd have Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Dark angels.cat? :P
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:10
Also -- and I know this may not be high priority -- but UX is going to be a mess having FW units splattered all over the place. Adding them as separate "factions" is going to make the output (especially printed output for tournaments) be confusing AF since you can't sort by anything due to BS output system currently
Imperial Soup is bad enough as it is
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:20
that is true enough
putting them in their own cat makes using FW units cumbersome in many ways compared to the old "inthecat"
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:21
UX is (or at least should be) high priority. It just happens that we decided to split things for better maintenance and did not see the mess with poor View until now and it's too late :<
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 11:22
its never too late - just too much effort ;)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:22
Am I wrong or in GW Index Imperium astartes' section is called "Space Marines" and in Forge World "Adeptus Astartes"?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:23
I think the way it is now strikes a decent balance between usability and maintainability
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:23
Hi, I started the FW astartes .cat yesterday based on member's suggestions. But I'm happy to hold off until there is a 'best practice' for how to add the FW stuff
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:24
The real issue is in how BS does HTML output. Since there's no rhyme or reason (or ability to choose how it sorts) it comes out...messy, at best -- confusing, at worst.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:24
@ddarz it's already published and that creates a problem
You can't now just rename it 'cause that'll cause issues for users
You can rename it but then also you should re-generate ID for the catalogue. And this will create another catalogue on users' side and leave the old one as it is.
That's why new catalogues and catalogue renaming should be approached very carefully.
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:30
Apologies, is the issue the name of the catalogue? I followed the convention that Cartag was using for the FW heretic astartes.
Also I have been working in my own fork, but there was one pull request so I guess that got published then :/
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:31
Yeah, unfortunately [it got published].
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:37
OK, so just so that I understand the issue exactly, what would have been the best way to approach this? And can it be reversed now?
Also to answer your earlier question : Yes the FW books insist on calling them Adeptus Astartes.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:46
Gosh I hate their inconsistency. As always...
Yeah well, it can't be reversed so no crying over spilled milk
Just change the catalogue ID (there is a button for re-gen in Editor)
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:47
Have you got the index? The proofing is... patchy
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:47
But we still need to figure out how to do these FW units.
I don't think we have consensus right now.
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:49
Ok so just to confirm what I need to do: Regenarate the catalogue ID. Make a pull request to get that sent through. Stop until there is an agreed method?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:49
There are three approaches:
  1. Every subfaction gets separate catalogue for Forge World
  2. Only huge catalogues get separate for FW (AM, SM, CSM)
  3. We incorporate everything into existing (if possible)
first has the worst experience and has been mostly ruled out
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:50
Second is going to be the same experience, really
Unless I'm missing something (which is definitely possible)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:51
How does it look for FW-specific subfactions?
Like Chapters or Regiments - anything so specific to require separate catalogue?
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:52
In the IM1 book it is not too bad: Astartes, Grey Knights, Inquisition and Sisters
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:52
Though the majority of these UX concerns would be addressed if @Jonskichov would/could change how BS does output
Hang on let me get I:IA
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:53
Chapter specific stuff is... The ROC storm eagle and a bunch of Characters
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jun 19 2017 11:54
plan from last night was to have GK, SoB, and Inq rolled into their CATs since there's only a couple units each there, and have astartes in its own CAT because its would literally double the number of options of the main file
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 11:55
There's also the Grey Knights Vortimer pattern Razorback and LR Redeemer, Grey Knights Doomglaive pattern dread, Grey Knight Thawk, Inquisition LR Prometheus, Sororitas Repressor
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 11:55

@ddarz to answer

Ok so just to confirm what I need to do: Regenarate the catalogue ID. Make a pull request to get that sent through. Stop until there is an agreed method?

just hold off till we reach an agreement :D

ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 11:55
Will do
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 12:17
So.
Best UX would be incorporation into existing cats.
but that means the worst maintainability
compromise: what about the GST?
It kind of sucks, but small fw ones can be put directly into their own
larger ones, especially those that concern a bigger number of cats, could go into the gst
like FW Astartes, that one affects up to 4 cats currently
specialised stuff like Inq LR hr whatshisface need not be in the gst
with C&P being a thing, "merging" already existing cats into their respective cats could work rather fine.
Big question is tho: how do we determine what goes where?
I for one expect chaos to, in the long run, start splitting into god-specific dexes which would put those (since they already have 2 cats they affect, rite?) into the gst
oth, we could just do it as we did before - that one wasn't too bad either since FW units rarely really change
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:50

Okay, so - I'm working on a tool that will allow us creating "resource" catalogues that could be imported into any other - essentially copy-pasting units. That tool however won't be ready for a month at least because it requires testing, integration with our pipeline and appspot, release system changes and overall a lot of work.

I think that when we can use it, integrating FW units into many catalogues at once will be a breeze - but until then we have to work it out somehow. as @Thairne suggested, we could temporarily use get, or just copy-paste things around for now.

Creating new catalogues has the cost of not being able to remove them later from users' installations. We need to do it carefully from the beginning.

Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 12:50
Idk I don't think GST is really a viable option for FW
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:51
Do the Astartes units need to be in many catalogues? Can't they just be in Space Marines period?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 12:52
Marines, BA, DA, GK
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 12:52
SW
deathwatch?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:52
Are you listing marine flavors that require copy-pasting? Why do they do?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 12:52
Oh yeah they're separate cats too
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 12:53
yep, they also need FW, not just SM. That's the prime reason I suggested GST, because as you see - those astartes toys are or rather can be used in 5 cats
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 12:54
6* cats
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:54
Still don't understand. Space Wolves can select Space Marine units, don't they? Why can't we put things just into SM?
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 12:55
GST is a terrible idea for FW IMO
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:55
Now we're talking, almost everyone is here :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 12:55
because SW are a separate cat
if you put them in SM, you might as well have them in a FW cat - since you'd need a new detachment for sm to access the FW units
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 12:56
I'm here but going to be taking a shower soon, it's 7am here
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:57
@Thairne that's true, but comparing options, creating new cat requires everyone playing SM to have another force and also introduces new file.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 12:58
yep, that helps SM.
But neither of the 5 other cats would be happy... try explaining to an enduser why he has to have a SM detachment with his Grey Knights if he wants to use a FW unit
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 12:58
while incorporating FW into SM cat would temporarily hinder experience for these chapters listed
yeah I get that. :<
Are say Land Raiders different between DA and SW for example?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 13:00
ok... so... I actually think that putting FW in every cat would be the best.
For now, that is a bit of work (until your tool can get that done for us), but it wouldnt change anything on the user side, but reduce the maintenance required for us
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:00
Just trying to understand the problem better
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 13:01
fw is the same for everyone I think - but I didnt look in FW Index yet
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:01
Just for sake of argument and because I really don't know the answer to this - how hard would it be for Jon to change the way HTML outputs for child forces?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:01
I mean, if the tool would brutally just paste the shared catalogue content into importing catalogue's structure, would that be ok?
Probably one-two hours work including testing
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 13:02
if it takes every ID from sub entries with it so the pasted entry stays internally consistent - I think so
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:02
Yeah it would literally copy the content :D
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:02
Because from what I've seen on all the comments on FB and here, that is the one thing end users want
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 13:03
only problem I might fathom is suddenly having duplicate IDs.. but that is rather... unprobable
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:03
I ask because Ynnari had some rules different.
Yeah we need to push Jon.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:03
And if we can get Jon to do that, we literally don't need the tool @amis92 is suggesting
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:03
It's bad
Not exactly, creating tons of catalogues also isn't good UX. But I see your point.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:04
Because if the HTML output is one unified output per parent detachment, that solves all the complaints I've seen
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 13:05
you'd still need a sub detachment for FW though
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:05
If we start doing catalogue for each book, given GWs release schedule we'll drown in a year :D
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 13:06
Another option would be for Jon to create a new filetype that can just be linked to like how you link to the gst
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:06
I don't think a cat for each book is necessary; they've already shown us factions are the new focus
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 13:07
then it wouldn't appear as a seperate force or need it's own detachment and all the marine cat could just link to the same file
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:07
@penguin20000 Yeah, but that's not happening this week or another month even :<
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:07
So if we do 2 cats per faction for the biggun, and 1 per for the smaller, it shouldn't be too terrible load on us
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 13:07
I know :(
i did create a feature request for it when Jon was developing BS2
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:08
So, I suggest @ddarz continues his work on Astartes FW catalogue but we don't merge it till ready and then we'll see if I can deliver the tool on time, or we just manually copy-paste (I can probably streamline it with a script)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:08
I think if we can fix the HTML output, a lot of this discussion becomes, I hate to say it, pedantic.
Because if Jon does that, the separate astartes cat would be fine for FW, at least imo
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:09
Yeah it probably would
So how do you propose exactly the fix should work like? We'd need to give Jon an explicit specification.

BSData/wh40k#3

added 10.-13. - what do you say?

Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:17
That it should combine all units in a child force into the same output as the parent- so all HQ units grouped together, etc
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 13:20
My $0.02 is that the only non-fortification units that should be in GST are ones that are used by more than one Grand Alliance (to steal a AoS term). Cypher and Fallen are available to both Imperium and Chaos, the only two units I'm aware of in the game currently that are like that.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:20
I'd drink to that
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 13:20
And if to more than one file in the different GA's its part of
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:24
Not that it matters, but I'm very much behind @la
er
Not that it matters, but I'm very much behind @alphalas in getting BS output cleaned up
It's by far the biggest UX/usability issue there is right now
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:27
https://flic.kr/p/VFRgwY @amis92 so what I want is for the primaris to be grouped there with yarrik and creed, and the astropath to be grouped with Kell and nork.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:27
And....sigh...I know this will make me sound like a heretic, but BS output in general needs some clean up and efficiency updates. Literally the only thing AB does better than BS is list output. Love or hate the grid, it's easy to read and easy to find what you're looking for. The lack of sorting/proper grouping makes for real readability issues.
I say this as a TO/judge
Having concise, easy to read army lists is paramount
BattleScribe is beautiful but there is so much wasted space in its output
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:30
That I disagree with - while yes, the venerable AB grid is good, (when it works) the BS HTML looks like the GW datasheet output - which amuses me greatly lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:30
True
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 13:30
That is true though, it isn't very space-conservative
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:31
However, most of my tournament lists consume 15+ pages for the "master" list output
And it doesn't handle parent/orphan printing worth a damn
(which is wholly NOT the fault of BS, but the Java printing system, at least on my Mac)
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 13:40
Would be nice to have a short sheet preset view Dorr TO printouts. Just points, no profiles, as an option to print while printing the rest of your roster. Like a tourney print mode. 3 rosters and a TO sheet.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:41
An "executive summary" sheet like that would be great for TOs and opponents alike
Ain't nobody got time to read a 15 page army list before your game starts. :)
god help us TFG Radio is promoting using Power Levels in tournaments, with swappable wargear between games
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe shudders
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 13:48
So just to confirm: I carry on adding to Imperium - FW Astartes.cat ?
it's only got a unit or two in it at this point, so I am happy to let it go if it doesn't suit
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 13:58
Have you played with pl before you decry it?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 13:58
Yes.
I'm not decrying it on principle nor in opposition to it being used in narrative/open play
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 13:59

@alphalas your suggestion may be incorporated by Jon, but not as the default I think - there are other systems out there that may depend on current output. But I agree that could be useful anyway, and the View as you've all discussed needs some love - meaning more options like the TO-optimized one.

@ddarz Yeah sure if there's no-one else doing your work, carry on, we need these entries anyway.

Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 13:59
Sideboard of gear is an amazing idea
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:00
Agreed
I'm just not sold on the idea of PL being the way to do that
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 14:00
Pl solves it pretty well. 100 pl is around 2k ish points I've seen too
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 14:01
Yeah and 50 seems to be around 1k give-or-take
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:02
It's the "-ish" that gives me pause
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 14:02
I don't like PLs - keeps me from optimizing load outs in transports etc. Pain in my ass.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:03
I think PL are great for narrative games (there's more than a few "narrative-only" groups around here) and as a way to quickly introduce new players to the game
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 14:03
Can't take say 9 Fire Warriors and Cadre Fireblade - it's just the same PL as 10 FWs but they can't then fit in Tidewall.
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Jun 19 2017 14:04
Jeez, I thought my local Meta was competitive! I can't imagine the arguments over PL in a tourney! ... "It's Powerlevel so I can load up on ALL the wargear for free!" trying to police that would send a guy loopy
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:04
I thought the rules said you could take under-strength units, you just had to pay points for the full unit
ddarz
@ddarz
Jun 19 2017 14:05
I like the option for PLs for sure, but I admit it does give an advantage to armies that have lot's of upgrades that can tip the scales too much. It works for Sigmar and the primaris units which have no options, but it breaks when units can take tons of wargear such as say Sternguard of something
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 14:05
Yeah, so I "loose" 1 Fire Warrior which I can't add to another foot slogging unit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:05
@sk_Father_Price_twitter it's not really that, so much as changing wargear/options every game
@amis92 I agree, it's...sub-optimal
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Jun 19 2017 14:06
@CrusherJoe sorry I need more caffeine, could you give me an example ?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 14:06
But hey, quick pickup games, any cool story or event, PLs are great IMO
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:07
Guard heavy weapons teams make a good example
They are PL3 regardless of what weapons they have
And that could be mortar, autocannon, h bolter, missile launcher or lascannon
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:12
So the proposal would be use PL in tournaments, which would allow some flexibility to allow some flexibility and reduce rock-paper-scissors matchups
The nightmare begins when your opponent has no clue what's really in your list.
WYSIWYG would have to be strictly enforced, not to mention use of third-party bits/models
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jun 19 2017 14:14
And it would also add overhead to the time spent updating your list to correctly include the correct options per game, swap out models to match the new list, etc.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 14:15
DKOK might need their own cat
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Jun 19 2017 14:18
I don't think either points or PL effectively gets around that though ?
You'd have to turn up with multiple prepared lists and 17 metric tonnes of magnets :D
that said, my first few games of 8th have been 50PL
Necrons vs Orks ... and it was awesome, fast play ... worked out points for comparison after and Orks were 150 points under my 1000 pts
they still swamped me
lil green buggers
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 14:22
yeah I have a sneaking suspicion horde armies will rule 8th
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Jun 19 2017 14:23
@Thairne I need more warriors :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 14:23
or more tl weapons with many, many a shot
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jun 19 2017 14:25
Yeah I have literally no idea how to deal with them hordes with my GKs :<
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Jun 19 2017 14:25
the C'tan with Seismic assault was a real winner ... big squad of 30 boys ? Fine I'll roll 30 dice looking for mortal wounds on 6's
@amis92 renaming you to FL-amis
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 14:29
Hordes are great. I'm bringing blobs of 30 bloodletters. +1 S if more than 20 models
tekton
@tekton
Jun 19 2017 14:29
@amis92 kiting psilencers has worked ok-ish against orcs so far
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 14:29
A I mean, not S
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 14:30
Think i might need to finally sort my orks & assemble all the stuffs i have
Bought job lots of boys & all sorts from ebay a few years back. Mostly stayed in the boxes
Francesco Venturoli
@Crowbar90
Jun 19 2017 15:12
I filed a PR with fixes for all Blood Angels open bugs, I see that some had already been fixed in previous PRs but they weren't merged yet
You can safely accept #241 anyway since it already contains fixes for everything
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 15:26
Is there a way to sticky an issue on git? Because pinning #77 would help on some of the bug reports we get
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:26
People have been reporting that Special Characters don't have to pay for their wargear: #216 They clearly got that from somewhere. My understanding was that most gear for special characters is just free, because it is special gear. Can someone confirm for me where I would find if special characters don't have to pay for basic wargear that would normally cost points?
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:29
It says on the points listing table
(includes wargear)
etc
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:30
Ah, there it is. Got it. Thanks.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:30
blob
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 15:30
And even the one that do play, mostly have 0pt wargear
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:31
for some i had to add a modifier to 0 the points off
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:31
That is the plan.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:33
i stole someone elses idea & added the points after the names whilst debugging so it was easy to tell if everything was ok
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:34
Do you guys think Badrukk should pay for his Ammo Runts?
image.png
Normally they cost 4 pts. They aren't exactly wargear.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:35
hrm, i'd say yes
as it's optional
if they were just included then it'd be different
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:36
Are there any other Special characters with optional wargear?
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:37
don't think there were any in SW. Maybe a Tau person that might be able to take drones?
i honestly haven't looked though
Troy Graber
@tag8833
Jun 19 2017 15:39
Looks like the current Tau file is making all SC's pay for their gear.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 15:39
They're models you add in. They cost points.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 15:39
I don't think you can pin issues in GitHub @cartag Best we could do i s edit the new issue template maybe? And add the guide to the wiki
and add a link to the readme.md
Not that anyone will bother reading it :(
tekton
@tekton
Jun 19 2017 16:28
Ok, all the grey knight bugs currently reported should be taken care of in PR#190, going to head to work in a few minutes
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jun 19 2017 18:38
Drukhari succubus wench has optional wargear, leith hesperax or what eve...
Also, @amis92 I believe @USSX-Hares has a python merge tool, he used to create the Ynnarii CAT...
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 18:52
So this might be cropping up in bug reports, but if people are having wrong/missing cat versions get them to do a "delete existing data first" check when they refresh. Android has been having some problems with source updates
I've had about 20 of those with the mobile files today
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 20:09
Welcome to the life.
Idiots abound
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 20:14
they do, but in some cases I can at least understand how they arrived at the point of question
I'm not a software engineer by trade, actually a Human Factors and Systems Engineer
so UI/UX design is mostly what I do and I can understand how people can get into logic traps
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Jun 19 2017 20:17
@WindstormSCR preach.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 20:53
does nobody know how to close dupe issues?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 20:54
for the love of the emperor and his angels of death
SOMEONE tell them to UPDATE their data BEFORE they report shit
if I have to close ANOTHER deprecated duplicate of deathwing champion or skitarii special weapons I'M GONNA FULL KHORNE
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 20:56
@/all PLEASE, for the love of everything holy or unholy, if you see something that is a duplicate, CLOSE IT!
@raptor1770 , the means don't comment on both and leave them open - close them suckers.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 21:00
I think only members of the data team can close issues etc?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 21:01
If you can close an issue, do it.
especially if it's a dupe.
somehow my notifications for bugreps got turned off so i haven't been able to (afk), but when there's a million bugreps for one cat, there's a good chance a few are dupe.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 21:07
also, @raptor1770, please don't go committing willy-nilly on cats without consulting the keeper.
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 21:07
^ because I'll cut you.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 21:07
^this.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Jun 19 2017 21:08
please do. I wanna :popcorn: too
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 21:08
i'm glad i wasn't in sisters; or else i would have to cut you.
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 21:09
Touch Chaos (before I get overwhelmed and realize I have to give something up) and you'll provide an offering to Khorne
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Jun 19 2017 21:35
I so wish the XML parser would not reorder things so badly to prevent Git merges.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 21:55
I should not have done this
I never wanted to realize how big my painting backlog was...
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 21:59
Really, thats not that bad
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 21:59
true, since most of that black is the actual armor basecoat (Raven Guard)
the amount of edge highlighting in my future makes me want to crawl into a hole though
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:00
:)
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 22:00
That's not bad at all
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:01
not pictured: 2 stormeagles, 2 razorbacks, another 20 tacticals on old 25mm bases (that I'm debating if I should sell or rebase)
and some converted ravenwing bikes
plus odds and ends that are HH only, like the few cataphractii consuls I have
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:03
20-30k points worth of Tau, 5-6k points of Necrons and probably 50-60k points worth of Chaos... almost all unpainted :(
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 22:03
I've got about 40 Bloodreavers, 60 Bloodletters, 2 Blood Slaughterers, 6 Bloodcrushers, 10 Blood Warriors, a Helbrute, a Hell Talon, Chaos Dreadhold (the AoS terrain piece), 20 zerkers, 2 rhinos, a land raider,
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:03
I dont have a table big enough to lay it out and take a pic lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:04
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:04
The only things I've painted to completion are the ruins and other bits and bobs for my table
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:04
those are the other two armies
GK and DW, mostly painted thankfully
GK was my baby through 7th
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:05
nice :)
i keep being tempted to try to sell my tau and necrons; i've not used them since I started playing chaos
but the logistics of working out a price just puts me off
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:07
that and most people will want pics
I used to have a sisters army, but that got sold right before the rumors of SoB plastics picked up
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Jun 19 2017 22:07
GW website price - 20% is a good starting price
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:07
paid for most of the HH Raven Guard
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:08
most of what I have was bought with a 20% discount already
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:08
I have some old WHF high elves and sigmar bits that need to go soon, AoS in my area died hard
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Jun 19 2017 22:11
Can't imagine paying GW minus 20% for used; it is not hard to find 25% off new in the US.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Jun 19 2017 22:17
I'm sorry i'm sure this has been asked before, but what are we doing about the difference in points/PL in the starter set vs the index?
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Jun 19 2017 22:23
ignoring the starter
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:23
The starter box books will have been done and gone off to print long before the indexes were finished, so the indexes will be the correct and most up to date i would have to assume
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Jun 19 2017 22:23
those two factions will prolly get codex within a month with new values
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:25
@skonk usually what I sell used for if it's unprimed but assembled or primed only is MSRP -35% and I've got pletny of takers in the past for older stuff (most of my IG)
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 22:29
It is now Austin
25 used to be allowed.
Now 15 is max for dealers. But they can do online orders now
Anything more is in breach of sales agreement.
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:30
we have some good online retailers here in the uk who do 15-20% off
but it depends on the product, GW gives the retailers different discounts
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 22:31
I should clarify. I speak for US.
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Jun 19 2017 22:31
Some better than others
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:32
my main issue is sorting all the models and taking photos etc
would have to spend a good day at it
im also not 100% sure i want to get rid of them lol. I should at least give them all a try in 8th
I'd planned on spending this evening (which has come and gone now like, its 11:35pm) doing some painting after work but it's been so damn hot all day that my attic (where all my kit is) is like the inside of a volcano
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 22:37
I can't believe I just picked up a cult mech army just because I have cawl and a couple boxes of skittari already -.-
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:37
heh
I built a Death Guard army after traitor legions came out
but i liked the 30k DG look
so I made it all out of mk3 marines, cataphratii terinators etc..
spent a lot of money on forgeworld bikes, jump marines, heavy weapon marines etc
few months later 8th is announced and now we have the indexes it looks like most of it wont be usable
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Jun 19 2017 22:39
it'll be usable once they get their codex.
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:39
i dont think they will
The way they singled out a bunch of units that could be "Death Guard" in the index makes me worry
it doesn't include bikes, csm's, terminators, drake, fiends etc
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 22:40
Unless they have special bikers in store, they have their own terminators in fluff
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:41
thats the worry
they will release new models that are like terminators.. but not terminators
and like bikes... but not bikes
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 22:41
meaning cataphractii terminators
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:41
its all very like what they did with AOS
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:44
@skonk do you have much chaos stuff you want to use them with? because if not you could always use the vanilla SM rules and entries and just be 'traitor'
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:44
I'll work out a use for them
obviously right now its all usable cos we can run armies that just share a keyword
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:45
I've been working out how to use some of my HH guys:
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:45
but when the DG codex comes out it may require everything to be Death Guard, and likely some standard chaos units wont be usable
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:46
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:47
nice
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:48
I think of all the stuff the stormeagles will be seeing the most play at 1500+
because of how good flying transports are in 8th
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:49
I'm supposed to be having a game on wednesday, likely 2000-2500 points and i think i'll try to fit my dread claws in
to give em a try
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:49
also you could always resort to using the fallen entry to rep DG
since they're basically chosen with an interesting bonus
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:49
yeh
im not sure how i feel about the dreadclaw now
the models have to get out if you deepstrike it in
and its not an open topped transport like it was in 7th
but it's gained a fair bit of damage output
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 22:51
I'm thinking about getting the bits to make a dreadclaw
And peltasts/hoplites
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:51
i bought one but it was such a nightmare to build due to warped parts and the way you have to shoehorn bits in so it all ends up under tension and stuff that i complained and they sent me another
the funny thing was that they actually re-sent my entire order
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 22:52
has the FW chaos index come out yet?
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:52
which included 2 packs of mk3 bikes
yeh it came out on saturday
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 22:52
anyonr have it?
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:53
someone in here has all the currently available epubs up on dropbox i think
i have the printed chaos on here at the side of me too :)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jun 19 2017 22:54
I just got a regular drop pod I disassembled and am thinking of converting
Yup it's in my DB
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 22:54
yeah, decided to check your DB link again :p
James
@skonk
Jun 19 2017 22:55
bed time for me anyway, catch yalls later
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 22:57
i need the rules for my GT to come out… all they have said it 2k points so far. the primer packet it awaiting approval :/
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 22:58
inb4 top 5 are all IG
might be a nids or ork in there somewhere
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Jun 19 2017 22:59
i need to trim 3 points from this:
smite spam.png
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 23:01
drop 1 single staff of change from a disc herald since he's mobile?
extra 6" won't make much of a difference if he's closer
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jun 19 2017 23:10
its a nasty list, but those horrors are going to die in droves from saturation fire, then your characters will end up exposed
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jun 19 2017 23:26
Hahahah
Smitesmitesmite!
Mwg can do some bad batreps, but I do like matt
cartag
@cartag
Jun 19 2017 23:30
Smite! Smite! Smitesmitesmite!