These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

1st
Aug 2017
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:02
@/all just pushed a release if anyone wants to get a new version out in the next 30ish mins
@acebaur for now you can fork and do pull requests. @amis92 has to give ppl write access, as he is the repo owner
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:04
Bitch I’ll do what I want.
I kid. Thanks for letting us know :p
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:05
<3
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:06
Also. So glad I ignored sm long enough for you to care enough to grab it.
Don’t want to touch index and codex soup with a 10 ft pole
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:06
not as bad as 7th ;)
however...
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:07
Really? Even with all he soup?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:07
lol codex soup
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:07
there are now two valid rule sets for certain things
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:07
I guess there’s no bs from fw to deal with
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:07
from codex, and from index
yeah, with child forces its not bad
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:07
That’s good at least.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:08
do you remember how to download a past commit/file?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:08
Umm. Copy the raw of the commit into a file
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:08
speaking of which I'm guessing you are keeping options from the index despite GW's confusing wording?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:08
im about to address that
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:08
They clarified either data sheet is usable I thought
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:09
that wasnt the awnser i wanted @Kohato
:p
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:09
they did, then the next question they said rules in the codex supercede lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:09
Hey. I remedy it by not ducking nip
Fucking up*
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:09
i havent fucked up
just need a pre-codex version
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:10
Ahh. Yea copy raw is all I know
If you did a pull you could probably revert to a new fork
But hey. I don’t use silly things like pills and version control
Pulls. God damnit phone I know what I’m typing.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:11
why do you need a pre codex version?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:12
for the index versions before i changed them to codex versions
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 01 2017 00:14
@acebaur if the number of actions to listbuild is getting you down for pickup games you can try the mobile format stuff, but I'm in the same boat as flak, except I'm trying to do most of the game system with just me
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:16
It's not a huge deal, just not what I'm used to, like I said last edition I did my own catalogue and made it as streamlined as possible because it was mostly just me using it
I typically list build ahead of time but it's fun lol
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:18
@acebaur where did they said codex superceds index?
about 3/4 the way down
under "Are the Rules changing"
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:25
hmmm
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:26
My personal opinion is that GW doesn't consider a units options to be "rules"
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:26
this is certainly another C:IA situation
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:27
and they consider "rules" to be things like the captain's rerolls
I tend to take an Occum's Razor approach with GW stuff because I believe that's how they think
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:33
well, the article says 3 or 4 times that code superceds index. but that one question about older models says to use the index data sheet still
meaning i have to be inclusive now
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:35
yeah and it specifically calls out unit options like the dreadnought
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:37
question becomes, do i bloat the cat, or create a 2nd index verion
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:39
I think most people are going to want to use those options like rifleman dread and bikers
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 01 2017 00:39
the logic basically goes "Is it in the codex? we assume you're using that one unless you need options the new sheets don't have"
which by itself isn't so bad
until this one:
"If you're BA/DA/SW/DW you can use the C:SM entries for units that your index preface references or new releases that are added to that list"
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:40
sigh
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 01 2017 00:41
the extra extra fun part
it doesn't specify which points to use for units that have a new datasheet but using options in the index. e.g. dreadnoughts with autocannons
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:42
I thought it said to use most up to date points?
Yeah it does "In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons "
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:44
goddamnit gw...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:45
rofl
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:46
goes to revert some things
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:46
So are any of you guys on Bolter and Chainsword?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:46
no
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:48
y not?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 00:49
Because we have better things to do?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:49
lol
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 00:50
The last forum I belonged to other then KK was a bionical forum - and that was 6-8 years ago lol
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:50
i havent been on one in about 5 years
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 00:51
Bionicle*
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:51
well it's a great site if you are into 40K
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:51
i hobby in my free time mostly. i float around on discord and twitch
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 00:52
@Kohato you know you want SM back lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:53
Lol nope.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:53
still not as bad as 7th tho
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:53
Hey. I made 7th sm as good as we could get it
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:54
yeah
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:54
Then cadia came
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:54
lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Aug 01 2017 00:54
Fuck cadia
Right @Thairne ?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:55
fuck… now im trying to remember all the codex xhanges i made :/
marneus… dreadnought...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:56
points wise?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:56
no, options wise
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:57
honor guard lol
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 00:57
yeah, them
two of those model dont even have axes………...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 00:58
stupid GW lol
like do they really expect that people would only buy models that are loaded with UM logos for HG?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 01:00
well they only come with calgar now i tihnk
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 01:00
that too
I'm surprised they don't have the UM keyword lol
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 01:01
pretty sure it was just 4 sheets. Calgar, (Venerable) Dreadnought, and Honour Guard
guess ill find out
hopefully caught appspot in time
MrRta1910
@MrRta1910
Aug 01 2017 01:05
I would like to help with the deathwatch catalogue how would I be able to do that?
tekton
@tekton
Aug 01 2017 05:33
Fracking mobile site...anyway; good job with the craziness @flakpanda
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 07:58
gadzooks!! GW made the C:SM ePub larger than 100Mb, which means I cannot upload it to Google Play books to read/use on my phone/tablet... DAMN THEM!!
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 08:03
there are PDF versions knocking about that could be down-res'd
and have working clickable index links and such
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:04
yup, but I like to keep them all "the same"
perhaps I should try one of the PDF versions...
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 08:04
I prefer the pdf's tbh
they work better on PC and since these have an index that can be clicked to get to the page it works and looks exactly the same as the pdf when using it on my ipad or phone
oh... and you could print out of them
i was thinking about printing off some mini pages of the sheets I use to have as cards :)
but that can wait till im back at work in a coupe of weeks so it costs me nowt
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:06
I've found Azardi has a decent clickable index for the latest ePubs...
also the PDF shared earlier is >100Mb so that's a no go for Google Books either
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 08:07
the pdf could be shrunk tho
lemme have a look
which book is it for?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:38
C:SM
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:39
for what it's worth you can open up the epub, extract the images and run them through an image optimiser then put them back into the ePub, should reduce the size
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:40
blimey... using which program?? I've never got into fiddling with ePubs before...
and I could reduce the size of the PDF myself by running it through a compression, but I'm just being lazy :smile: (thanks for the suggestion though! :+1: )
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 08:41
epubs are just renamed zip files
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:41
oh really...
(learn something new every day)
is that like .xlsx files are really compressed .xml files
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 08:42
pretty much
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:42
yep
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:42
right, so, what program would you suggest to make the chance of success high?
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:43
Its been a while since i've done it. 1 min
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:43
:+1:
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:44
infact lemme try it real quick i grabbed the ePub last night
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:44
:cool:
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:50
Got it down to 96MB though that's with "Lossy" compression just trying the lossless option
Some of the images are too big for this site to do with the free version too
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 08:52
just replace them all with a 1-pixel jpg. What do you really need the images for anyway? :)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 08:53
because they're pretty
:tongue:
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 08:53
:D
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 08:56
Got it down to 84.6MB
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 09:37
fab :smile:
(care to share, I'm feeling REALLY lazy)
:relaxed:
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 09:44
@FarseerVeraenthis use Kobo for mobile. It works great GW's new epubs. For pc I like Readium best
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 09:49
I'll give that a go when I get home
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 09:50
Happy to upload it, though don't really have anywhere :(
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 09:54
what?! you don't have a cloud storage solution?!?!? hehehe that's cool, I can fiddle about with it myself, it doesn't sound like it's too tricky...
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 09:55
get a mega account, 50 gig free woop woop
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 09:58
also, just looking through the issues, #1056 - very restrained response @amis92 :wink: we'll see what they come back with
oh, that's funny, my system clock is running behind (somehow, don't ask) so the latest bug that was reported was/is reported "2 minutes from now" as opposed to "2 minutes ago"...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 10:02
Lol it knows the future!
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 10:03
only the next 3 monutes
minutes
stupid fat fingers
MrRta1910
@MrRta1910
Aug 01 2017 10:07
How do I do a request not a bug report
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 10:10
erm... I'd love to be more helpful, but have you read the introduction to using Github and so on??
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 10:37
@MrRta1910 if you mean a feature request, just open a new issue and describe what you'd like to see changed. if you're trying to do a pull request, you can do that from the pull requests tab on the main repo
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 11:01
I swear today I'm actually gunna try to slay my bugs and actually finish AM
My procrastination and ADHDing away from the data editor is starting to piss myself off
In other news, I got my second dreadclaw assembled last night
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 11:18
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 11:22
those Dreadclaws look epic
thanks Penguin, it's just processing in Google Books now
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 11:41
seems to have processed, I'll check it shortly :+1:
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 11:53
Dreadclaws are sick - I'm glad FW went to this ascetic over the old dreadclaw - that thing was just bad
Just unfortunate that I can only use them in 30k as a BA
Don't wanna run traitor just to play with my toys
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 11:55
well.. could just call then Dark Angels :wink:
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 11:57
@Thairne would love that lol
Interestingly enough, claws can't transport levs in 40k
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 11:58
well, why not make things more complicated hey
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:05
It's just weird cause in 30k they are a dedicated transport for lev dreads
Also, 2 days late, but #ForzaFerrari
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 12:06
Did you guys see the EC teaser?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:06
from yesterday?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:06
yeah, theyre slaanesh daemons now
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:07
they did appear to contradict their own rules though.
which is handy
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:07
how so?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:08
they say that if you're charged, you can somehow go first?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:09
i thought units that go first alternate, starting with the player whose turn it is
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:10
yes, that's what the rulebook says.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:11
Immediately underneath that, they say that if you charge Noise Marines, you could get struck down before you attack, which is not how it works.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:11
If you charge, then you alternate your charging units with EC units
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:11
the charging unit will still get to go first.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:11
Only the first
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:11
yes, unless it's a multicharge
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:12
Then an EC unit, then the next charge, etc
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:12
Or I suppose if there are multiple charges in the phase
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:12
yeah, if there's two separate charges, you'll get to go first in one of them
or if you were already engaged elsewhere
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:13
I just think it's confusing the way they worded it.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:13
If you charge with 6 units, theoretically only 1 will be able to swing unmolested - the other 5 might get swung at first by their targets
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:14
Yes, the EC player will go first in at least 50% of the charges.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:14
yeah, its the same as using the 2cp stratagem all the time and for free
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:14
Yup
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:15
it does alright for slaanesh daemons, not sure how useful it will be for EC
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:15
Which means make the first combat you resolve be the one that matters the most
If possessed are as good at they imply, it might be brutal
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:16
yeah, i was thinking terminators to make good use of the strategem
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 12:17
picking combat order is already really important, at least in the games I've played.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 12:21
Custodes tend to tank things so I've found it less important in my games ;)
I also need to remember they're 3w god damnit
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 12:23
Terminators are way more durable now which I love
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:27
terminators are the reason all of my plasma guns explode
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 12:29
Lol
Don't overcharge without a captain? Lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 01 2017 12:31
This ^^^
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 12:32
now i just need to get a chimera that can fit a captain :thinking:
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:12
#1067, what is the general consensus on taking index options over codex?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:14
generic SM - if its in the codex, you cant use the index datasheet
BA,DA,DW,SW,GK - if its in the codex you can use it if you want, or use the index instead
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:15
My reading of what GW said was "official" is that if it's in the Codex, use the Codex, regardless of your chapter.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:16
No that's not what they said
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:16
but if you have options which are non-Codex, use the Index rules for those options?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:17
i thought they said for non-codex chapters that they can use the codex if they want, or they can wait for their own codex
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:17
They specifically said BA/DA/SW can/should use Index for everything
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:17
oh yeah, I missed that
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:18
But they've also said even codex marines can use the Index to
Too*
It's c:IA all over again
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:19
well, they said Codex marines can use the index in friendlies.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:19
oh yeah, reading it again it says non-codex use the index in all instances
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:19
We need to support both at the same time because GW can't make up their mind about overruling things
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:21
can't we just say we support the "official" rules?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:21
for matched play, they say the codex overwrites the index
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:21
which are "use the newest version of whatever you're using"
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 13:24
They specifically call out options that are only in the Index as being able to be used
Used the Dreadnought as an example
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:25
yes, so you have 3 things. Fully Codex, Codex with additional Index options, index only
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 13:27
so, two SM CAT's it is then, one for C:SM, one for Index. I assume that the index will never be revised further than the FAQ / errata, and will eventually be replaced by the Codexies
parent/child force options allow you combine both
without having to try to combine both in one CAT
which is going to be very difficult
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:29
Probably the easiest, yes. Freeze the latest version of the cat, and rename it to "index version" then update a new copy.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:31
i would do it the other way around, keep the most recent publication on the "main" cat
and make new files for the legacy options
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 13:33
I'm not seeing an issue here. For now GW has specifically said that you can use options in the index that aren't in the codex
Which is the way the cat is now
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:33
but they also say that in friendlies you can use whatever the hell you like.
which is where we have a problem
as if we update the cat to the codex values, someone is bound to complain that they can't choose index options - see #1067
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:34
and they also said you can use options that dont exist anymore by using the index datasheet
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:35
@GenWilhelm, isn't that what i just said?
make a copy and rename one of them :)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 13:35
yeah, pretty much
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:35
the difference is the CAT ID
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 13:35
troo dat
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:36
I see what you're saying now.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:36
keep the current ID as the updated version
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 13:36
so the current file becomes C:SM, the new file becomes the index legacy support
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:36
Would you need to regen all the ids?
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 13:37
Remember the point about using the index sheets for stuff with missing options does also say to use the latest published points
so even if you use the index... you still MUST use the points from the codex
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 13:37
shouldn't have to, just the main ID for the CAT
and yes, that is a point that could prove tricky
but then you can switch it off Chapter Tactics - surely??
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:38
@skonk, where possible.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 13:38
but the legacy CAT is supposed to be for people using the index alone
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 13:48
so, we have a legacy Index cat which stays as is. The main cat gets updated with everything in the Codex and any index-only options get their points updated as required. Any Index-only units get left as is in the main cat.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:49
Which will also work, courtesy child detachment max
No no Index only in cat c:sm I'd think
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 13:50
i'mma need commas to understand that last statement, is that parking in the top field or no parking in the top field
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 13:52
No, no Index only units in cat C:SM
As in cat C:SM should be strictly C:SM, All Index stuff should be in I:SM
At least for now I think
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:11
It's funny how everyone but @flakpanda discusses how to implement his catalogue :D
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 14:12
feel free to do the same next year when the nids codex arrives :P
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:13
Oh don't be so pessimistic ;)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:13
I don't care how he does his. I need to do mine next week and I want to make sure we're consistent.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:13
Yeah, consistency is of high value indeed.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:15
I feel a wiki page coming on :)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:16
I'm wondering if there might still be some other way to do that. Introducing a stale catalogue just for something that will get deprecated in like a year at most seems like a bad idea. I do understand there might be no other way, but maybe, just maybe someone has a better idea :'(
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:30
Hmm. Reading #1067 it seems there is more ambiguity than I thought. It might be read that if you want to use i.e. Dreadnought with Autocannons you should use Index Datasheet (but most recent points, meaning Codex points) - whole Datasheet, not mix-and-match.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:31
are there any other differences in that case?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:31
Possibly special rules? IDK
It seems GW may still straighten it out, so I'd hold off with publishing the Index catalogue.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:35
in that specific case, i think there are no other differences, so it's not so much of a problem. But I think there are some units which have 3 different PL values now, one from Dark Imperium, one from the Index and one from the Codex.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 01 2017 14:39
At least GW told us to ignore the pl from DI
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:45
also, just by the way, @penguin20000 that ePub seems to work nicely, uploaded fine, processed and downloaded to Google Play Books on my phone with no drama :smile:
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:45

Okay so let's get facts straight (correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Codex Datasheets replace Index Datasheets
  • as an exception, datasheets giving options no longer available in Codex are also legal
  • Index Datasheets not updated by Codex stay as they are

That is for just vanilla Astartes.

Non-Codex Chapters (BA/DA/SW/?):

  • use Index Datasheets
  • add Primaris stuff as an exception
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:46
so, non-codex is where things get really exciting... because they can choose to use sheets from the Codex or from the index
(as I understand it)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:47
I think it says that you use the Index, except for new models which are only in the Codex.
so it's actually not that much of a problem because all of the affected chapters are separate for us?
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 14:48
Other Space Marines factions not covered in the new codex will continue to use all the datasheets, rules and points values in the index until their own codex is released.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:48
exactly
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 14:49
so they cant use the new units, apart from primaris which are specicifially mentioned as you can take them in non codex armies
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 14:50
yep, datasheets in the box, points online
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 14:51

@amis92

Okay so let's get facts straight (correct me if I'm wrong):

  • Codex Datasheets replace Index Datasheets
  • as an exception, datasheets giving options no longer available in Codex are also legal
  • Index Datasheets not updated by Codex stay as they are

That is for just vanilla Astartes.

Non-Codex Chapters (BA/DA/SW/?):

  • use Index Datasheets
  • add Primaris stuff as an exception

This is my understanding also

Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:51
:+1:
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 14:52
the ? is DW and GK
penguin20000
@penguin20000
Aug 01 2017 14:52

also, just by the way, @penguin20000 that ePub seems to work nicely, uploaded fine, processed and downloaded to Google Play Books on my phone with no drama :smile:

Awesome :)

Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:53
well, Gay knights are coming out soon, so if we nudge the discussion along for another few days we'll get a leak and it'll all be rosy
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:53
Okay so that doesn't look like it needs separate catalogue. Just duplicate and suffix things with legacy options (Dread w/AC) with some [INDEX] text and leave them forever and ever in the catalogue because they're probably not going anywhere, ever.
Or is that every single data sheet?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 14:54
@/all I just woke up. I'm pooping and skimmed thru what I missed. I only know what going in because of @amis92. I will Jon the convo in like 20 mins and explain what you all seems to have missed.
Join*
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 14:54
oh you tease
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:54
havea nice :poo:
:poop: even
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 14:55
@FarseerVeraenthis you can edit quickly your last comment by clicking arrow up on PC
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 14:55
...again I'm pooping
Oh. Nvm
See why I need 20 mins :p
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 14:58
yeah, I could have done that, but I didn't want to miss the "drop" :tongue:
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:01
@flakpanda, if you're going to say that GW have said you can use whatever the hell you want in non-matched play, then I say screw 'em.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 15:03
well, the differences between matched play / narrative are the reasons I initially suggested having two CAT's
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:03
yes, and if we're going to support that, I think that's the only way to do it.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 15:04
if we're doing 2 cats then what happens if a new unit comes out, eg a 35th anaversery captain, does he go in the I:SM or C:SM?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:08
New units in new files, because they don't have a Index entry.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 15:09
but then if i'm using space wolves, how do I know where to get my rules from? wouldn't it be split amonst 3 cats?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:10
Aren't all the SW units in the SW cat already?
if we're retaining Index versions, we'll have to retain Index versions of every cat.
So you'll only need two at most.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 15:12

Index versions of every cat

why do i have a really bad feeling about this?

Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:12
I know, it's a flipping nightmare.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 15:12
oh SW is as you say, all options in one cat, i'm dumb..
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:13
If we want to make it easy on ourselves, we should only support matched play rules.
if we want to make everyone happy, we'll need to continue to provide data for the Indexes.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 15:13
is an autocannon dread match play?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:14
yes, because you're allowed to use Codex rules with Index options
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 15:18
^ I wouldn't agree. Either you're using Index datasheet, or Codex Datasheet.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 15:19
In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 15:19
^this
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:20
ok, but in the majority of cases, there's no difference between the two except for the options.
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Aug 01 2017 15:20
for C:SM
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 15:21
Surely when Codex SW (e.g.) comes out the index will be null and void for SW...?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 01 2017 15:21
Maybe.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 15:21
Probably again except units not included in Codex.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 01 2017 15:21
^ exactly
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 01 2017 15:22
GW seems to be handling the Primaris marine stuff in the laziest way possible
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 15:22
Well, at least we didn't get separate Primaris Codex
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 01 2017 15:22
And I still don't get the WTF moment with "Herp derp, no riflemen dreads in the codex."
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 01 2017 15:22
so, we wait to see what another Codex looks like, since I would like to hope the number of SW units in the Index but NOT in the Codex = 0
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 15:25
well the reason behind not having riflemen in the codex is because they no longer produce left(?) autocannon arms
and they we only included in the index to cover legacy models
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 15:26
I need coffee and breakfast and I'll be on.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 01 2017 15:36
FW still makes both sets of ac arms... Don't they?
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 15:37
FW also have rules for a dread with them both
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 15:39
All the changes they mad was to reflect CURRENTLY available models.
Not including FW
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 15:57
One wonders how long one may eat a breakfast with coffee :fork_and_knife: :coffee: :clock10:
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 15:58
...it took 25 mins to get my coffee at Starbucks. I'm also not happy.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 15:59
:hourglass: that's a wait...
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 16:00
why :question: does everything :earth_africa: have an emoji :100: attached to it?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:00
Why not?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:01
I admit I'm kind of bored. :wine_glass:
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:08
ok im home now.
@/all i think this will pertain to every faction at some point. so while this conversation will focus on Space Marines and extend to Astartes, it will be a good conversation for everyone
lets start at the top, with C:SM
what GW has decided does kinda suck. but I went and looked over everything again last night after finding out about the index vs codex article.
for now it is actually pretty easy. for SM, you may use the old index datasheet with codex point values.
my decision was to be ALL inclusive on units in BS then
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:13
there are only currently examples of a model losing wargear, or gaining wargear
this incusion is easy this way. make sure all options from both are represented and apply the newer point values
easy peasy and done.
now the tricky part. Non-codex marines
GW has stated that the use of codex marine units (called in the index to be used) MAY be used by these factions
this forces impatient people to buy a $50 codex for updated unit rules/points
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 16:17
i thought that too, but i cant find a source for it
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:17
currently, imo, the best solution is never to do a codex cat and an index cat even
Sorry, the article refers to new unit release, ie primaris units
in this case, only the units they have listed can be used with the new points. so non-codex marines are ok, and just need the models they keep releasing, per released PDFs, to be added
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:21
That actually sounds good.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:21
There is one scenario that could be a bit of a snag, but have a solution for
because it says you use one datasheet or the other, not a mashed version of both; if you have exclusive options to the index version, and exclusive options to the codex version. (there is no such case yet)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:23
Uh-huh
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:23
there just needs to be a sub-selector for the unit
ie Unit -> Index or Codex
a max 1 radio buttons
then place options under the appropriate one
like the Dreadnought for example if needed to
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:25
Mmm nay, that nests. Better to make it same level (maybe nest in a group) and show/hide appropriately. That'd be a good use of hidden.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:26
i doubt there will be many of these situationis tho if GW is moving towards repping the current models in the data sheets more
how would you do that? what if i want one of each version?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 01 2017 16:27
i think he means have a dummy entry on the same level as the other options that changes which options are hidden
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:28

Dreadnought

  • Datasheet Source [entry group]
    • Codex Datasheet (default) [entry]
    • Index Datasheet [entry]
  • Codex Wargear [entry group]
    • options
    • modifier "hide if index datasheet selected"
  • Index Datasheet [entry group]
    • options
    • modifier "hide if codex data sheet selected"

But I have no idea how that'll work with default weapon selections etc.

flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:29
oh, so a selector and the option on the same level
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:29
But at that point I think two separate entries might be viable.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:30
thats bloat tho. i dont think another C:IA scenario needs to happen
assume newest rules always, as they are technically the most recent supported. (As GW is implying)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:31
Well it's a choice between selection bloat, selection nesting and possibly not working third option [my suggestion]
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:31
again, this is in a exclusive vs exclusive situation
no, i think yours is more feasible than nesting
this will be a more limited accurance unless they release new kits that have wargear they the old ones didn’t, but eliminated some old wargear options
and C:SM is our only referance atm, as more codecies get released we will have to pay attention
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:36
Actually maybe merging both of our solutions is the best, so instead of two wargear lists just make one that hides and shows options depending on Sheet Source selection. It could even be introduced into currently "mixed" entries if people start complaining we have too many choices xD
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:38
We can test the solutions out to be prepared, but we currently do not have this situation anywhere
Have to cross the bridge when is comes
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:39
Yeah yeah, I get that. Just trying to crystallize solution should we need it.
So, @flakpanda - #1067 might be a good place to summarize changes and what and where to find.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:41
yeah, ill have to write something.
you can have any default selected when hiding the lists.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:47
min 1 removes the “(None)” option as soon as you select something.
so moving to hide the lists makes deselection impossible
nesting works as expected
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Aug 01 2017 16:50
Thought so.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 16:56
Doing this allows deselection:
Screen Shot 2017-08-01 at 11.56.29 AM.png
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 17:35
Can someone response to #1070 plz
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 01 2017 17:38
it doesn't help that I think the primaris PDF and codex had different points and battlefield roles
will need to double check
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 01 2017 17:39
That all should be fixed in v21/22
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 23:24
i was going to have a game tomorrow and try my new space marines stuff, but I've overdone it on the order and after of still got loads left to build :(
so chaos it is
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 23:30
that was supposed to say after 2 days ive still got loads left to build
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 01 2017 23:50
I'm really tempted by the redemptor
Now that I've see what it looks like without the fat beer belly
James
@skonk
Aug 01 2017 23:52
heh