These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

5th
Aug 2017
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:00
I friend plays Red Scorpians
which is a Forge World chapter but is supposed to be a successor of Ultramarines
And I thought I'd seen it say you could use your founding chapters rules as you said but I assumed I'd read it online
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 00:01
You probably read it in a leak of the dex
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:02
I have the dex here and as Gen said it's there :)
So yeh, red scorpians I guess would use the ultramarines tactic
it also says the same for stratagems
not clear if it would also let you use the founding chapters warlord trait too but i dont see why not
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 00:07
I can't imagine you couldn't
honestly though, no one should give you shit if you wanted to use another chapter's CT
Most Important Rule and all that
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:09
well, he could obvously just use them as Ultramarines with a different paint job
but there are 2 forgeworld HQ's
and their rules buff "Red Scorpians"
but the way it seems to read to me is that you would run the entire army as Red Scorpians and pretty much just ignore the ultramarines keyword and replace it in all the rules with red scorpians
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 00:11
that's exactly what you do
why the feck does it embed that....
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:17
because Gitter does that
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:21
Looks like each god has a Daemon to use in the CSM book
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:28
I love how he says "Just use the mortis dread" when GK explicitly can't use the mortis dread
any bets on how long before people file bug reports on that?
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:28
that from the FAQ?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:28
yeah, if it isn't in the GK section you can't take it
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:29
Forgeworld clarified who could use what in their FAQ
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:29
I'm hoping forgeworld might relax that some day, but unlikely
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:29
oh so its not in the GK section in the FW faq/
like death guard can't use Rapier Batteries.... right after I bought 3 to use in my DG
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:30
but the FW faw did give leviathan/Contemptor/Deredeo dreads the "helbrute" keyword.... so they get legion traits :)
faw = faq
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:30

Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the

<Chapter>
Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the
Legion of the Damned
or
Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including
Blood Angels
,
Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and
Deathwatch

James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:32
I'll stick a comment on the vid
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:34
already did
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:34
from his quick flick through the pages... it goes Lord, Lord in Terminator Armour, Sorcerer, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour.... no "on bike", "on juggernaught", "on palaquin" etc
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:34
RIP
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:34
saw it coming but so many people use lords and sorcs on bikes
hmm, right as he's saying "nothing new, no new shiney models" he's flicking the pages and theres a sheet for "Exalted Champion" - the fuck is that?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:35
so index will continue to be a thing
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:36
re-rolled failed wound rolls in the fight phase
aura
thats a new unit is it not?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:36
don't think so?
I'm not a chaos guy
could be a renamed dark apostle
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:36
no its not
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:36
same functional effect
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:37
its a new unit
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:37
no its what the named CS dude was
the special champion from DV
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:37
he gave re-rolled wounds?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:37
i think so? maybe?
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:38
this looks more like a chaos version of the space marine leutenants
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:38
i remember he was an auto-take
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:38
they give re-rolled wound rolls of 1
this is reroll all wounds but only in the fight phase
the CS guy, you mean Vrosh Tattersoul?
in 7th he just had a cleaving thing but thats all, they did some 8th ed rules that they let shops give to people who bought dark vengeance sets
i have photos of the sheets, 1 sec
ok so your half right :)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:40
yes tattersoul
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:40
pasting the image but its not uploading
image.png
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:40
well i guessed right on what the new grand master would be called...so at least that's done :P
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:41
so its basically the same as you said
but its for <Legion> not Crimson Slaughter but this new one also has some wargear options
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:41
makes sense - but its the same role he fills
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:41
its basically just a chaos lieutenant
with standard HQ wargear i
wargear options that should have said
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:43
ok, question for everyone - i have 5 chimeras, but no guardsment to put in them (yet/anymore). should i make them be convertable between salamanders and chimeras, or just wait till i get my DK?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:44
hard for me to say, I used to play guard and I've heard very mixed things about chimeras this edition
at least 2 local lord generals are running almost pure foot lists now with a few boxes for extra speedy objective capture
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:45
not my area tbh so not sure what to say
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:45
or artillery tanks
its a very DKoK meta
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:46
wowsers, they changed Plague Marines a tad and the data sheet is taking up a full page now
they have a new ability rule and a bunch of new wargear
holy crap at the amount of wargear...
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 00:47
well right now i have a crapton of eradicators - thinking about swapping out for an annilator or exterminator
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:48
image.png
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:49
tbh russes are fukt this edition until the codex
they're too expensive for a wildly variable main gun
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:50
Dreadnoughts get access to more than smite for GKs now, yay my venerables are more useful!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:50
as long as they aren't rifledreads
in which case RIP you
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:50
but you can use the index data sheety cant u?
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:51
i had a twin las and missile launchers- so mine are still valid!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:51
yes, and lose all the new smite stuff
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:52
i'm going to have to re-read the conversations, etc in here when I go to add stuff in since I'm pretty sure this is completely replace the index for what's valid technically...
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 00:52
looks like the plague marines data sheet in the CSM book is reflecting what ever changes got made to them in the death guard codex
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:52
It's contemptors I feel for :( (glad i didn't make any)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:53
@tekton welcome to the C:SM debacle of what's valid and what isn't
the TL;DR catch-up version
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 00:53
yeah @WindstormSCR I knew it was coming, which is why I had been trying to keep it up
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 00:54
you can choose index or codex data sheet, always use the most current points, and the whole data sheet applies
so you don't get the new psyker section on old dread for example
but both do use whatever the codex points are for a dreadnought
and same for weapons
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:01
lol CSM have a stratagem that's column goes from the top, all the way to the bottom of the page
how they going to fir that on on the cards :)
fit^
1cp strat that lets a helbrute shoot twice... Leviathan Dreadnoughts have the Helbrute keyword now thanks to the FW faq.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 01:04
welp
so thats 4d3 mortal wounds or 2 grav bombard shots
assuming melee/gun
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:04
FAQ also lets you run 2 ranged weapons
so you could run 2 grav fluc bombards
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 01:05
if double gun that's 8d3 mortals or 4 shots
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:05
:)
Ah the massive strat is basically Chaos Boons all rolled into a single strat
look at that shit
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:06
image.png
I missed boons tbh
yeh thats nuts
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 01:08
i actually need to buy 2 baby carriers now...wonder if they will ever be in stock again online...
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 01:08
that's enough mortals on a average roll to cripple a landraider or knight
and those 8 average shots? about 6 connect, so on average saves a knight straight up dies to a double grav levi
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:09
spose they will just remove the keyword if they think its too much
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 01:09
25 damage, to a knight's 24w
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 01:10
Ah nice so these new Boons actually let you get a Daemon Prince (or Spawn) without paying reinforcement points
man some of these strats are pretty nuts for the CP cost
1 cp to let a daemon engine rerolled ALL failed hits and wounds in the fight phase
1 cp to let a psyker changed one of its spells
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 02:39
I think that's the video people were referencing for the last bit, but thank you for sharing :)
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:22
the frames with the points are so blurry :P
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:28
...and GK terminators went UP in price; because that's what they needed- to be more expensive per model
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:28
wait
what
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:29
44 => 46
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:29
did stormbolter costs change?
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:30
that's the without wargear option, but that would be interesting if it moved...
nope, still 2 points
paladins are the same cost...
the video never quite focuses on the points fully to do a full update yet ./sadTrombone
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:36
well
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:37
so we get a better psyker bomb and strategems to sink in the early rounds for alpha damage; that's my main take aways so far
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:37
I'm pretty sure he wanted to not get screwed by GW legal but give enough determined people with pixel editing skills could figure it out
its soildly meh
they seem to be focusing on flyers and baby carriers, and I hate the dreadknight
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:38
oh, frame by frame was my friend for a few things- and it's not like i'm not ordering the stuff tomorrow
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:38
I own nothing but TDA
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:38
I hate them, too! ...but I have two on my shelf to put together because I keep telling myself I really should have at least one.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:38
1 dreadknight which remains the only single model I ever bought just for rules
then nothing but TDA
I do have a single landraider with the FW doors and psycannons
and a stormraven that still needs paint because I never use it
that might change a little this edition
but really I'll still probably be using just a mix of GK and deathwatch detachments
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:40
I have 1.5 stormravens...really tempted to turn the "half" one in to a scenery piece anymore
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:40
just a LR full of paladins is a nice vanguard detachment
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:40
i'm getting the bits to convert one of my stormravens into a storm eagle - lets see how that turns out.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:40
crusader, apoth, ancient, 5 pald
make the wings about 30% wider if you want to keep the same rough profile
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:41
@tekton does it have the important parts to make an eagle/raptor?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:41
I can take a side by side tomorrow or sunday
assuming you mean kitbash and not chinacast
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:41
no as in it's actually the FW add-on bits to make the eagle from the raven kit
but yes, china
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:42
may your bits be unbent
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:42
@alphalas actually it has most everything but the canopy and top guns
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:42
because china resin does not unbend
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:42
the source i've been getting actually suprisingly does.
so yes, it does save canopy lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:43
I build FW stuff on commission since I'm the local resin monkey, and I got handed knockoff parts once and I handed them back saying I wouldn't touch it since the petrochem resin requires heat beyond safe handling temps to unbend.
if they're using newer poly resin it might be better
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:44
my source has mostly switched over to a grey resin of a similar quality to FW
responds nicely to heat from my heat gun
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:44
I've handled various types of chinacast doing comission builds, and after much experience I always buy proper FW for one single reason: customer service
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:45
my guy is actually suprisingly good for CS
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Aug 05 2017 03:45
if a china part is fucked? RIP
if FW part is fucked? they'll fix you right up no matter what it takes if its letigimately unfixable
for one build the entire barrel of a warlord titan volcano cannon was mold slipped
they next-day shipped the replacement, was kind fo scary
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 03:47
like unless it's a model where they specifically say no aftersales service (my $9 storm eagle kit, gorgon, and some machs) they do replace broken/missing parts. i haven't tested if they replace slips or not.
also i think my one friend is lucky as fuck - he ordered a shitton of DKOK from FW, and the only problem he had was that he was just legit missing one krieger.
that boggles my mind because i've seen some pretty shitty stuff leave nottingham.
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 03:49
Your source intrigues me now
I bought this one on ebay for super cheap thinking i would "fix" it one day...but now I'm not so sure; and I have another unopened stormraven in the garage and can't think of a good reason to take two anymore (esp with the fliers not counting when getting tabled)
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 04:07
And I think I may pick up a second apothecary and chaplain tomorrow and make them grey knights since I don't like the old school models really...they'll be "close enough"
MrRta1910
@MrRta1910
Aug 05 2017 04:41
@alphalas Who do I use
@alphalas Who is your resin source
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 04:53
its a guy who operates by email - if you're in CONUS I can ship to you for pretty cheap.
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 05:30
ok, dreads support index and codex now- validation yells. time to go paint said dreadnoughts and prep for modifying primaris 'cary/chaplains tomorrow
MrRta1910
@MrRta1910
Aug 05 2017 09:08
@alphalas Sadly I'm not I'm au
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 10:05
lots of CSM points costs changes in the new book
some pretty huge ones
almost all of them reductions
also several weapons gained more shots, models gaining wounds etc
and.... cult marines no longer troops :)
:( even
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 12:02
@tekton if you are are going to turn that raven into terrain I'd be interested in the tail boom assembly
@alphalas I'm in CONUS, do you have a product list for this guy?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Aug 05 2017 12:26
Cult marines weren't troops in the index for non-cult armies?
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 12:32
berserkers were troops for world eaters for example
in the codex, they are not
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 13:57
@/all I'm updating the DW cat to have the Primaris stuff and I'm wondering if the Primaris weapons shouldn't be listed in the game cat as they are available across multiple factions?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Aug 05 2017 14:03
Probably, the other SM weapons and stuff are in the GST so primaris probably should be too... I don't maintain an imperium Cat though so don't take that as read...
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 14:43
@GenWilhelm are you still using the DKOK-v15 and DKOK-v17 branches? I only create those to do DKOK work but github shows you last updated them and I don't want to delete branches someone might be using
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 05 2017 14:49
Forgot to tell you @CrusherJoe I will be at wargames con
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 14:50
SUHWEEEEEET @flakpanda
:+1:
This is good news indeedy
We're officially an ITC Major Event, gonna be a great weekend
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 05 2017 14:52
A major? Sweet.
Bringing a more flexible list this time :p
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 14:55
Yeah we crossed our original limit of 64 players a few days ago, had to get more space from the hotel. We have a new max of 96, I'm expecting we'll have somewhere in the mid-80s
(which technically means we sold out, I guess?)
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 05 2017 14:56
Good things
Shows the bolstered interest in 8th
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 15:00
I'm loving 8th
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:04
@alphalas I just did a pull request but have had it closed and asked to join this room. Hello!
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:05
Hey man - I'm the AM cat editor
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:05
Hi. Have a tournament coming up next weekend, want to use Taurus and Malcadors, noticed they were missing from the data files and added them
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:05
Reason I closed your pull req is because I have the data editor open on my local PC, working on the cat.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 15:05
I'm not saying it is without issues -- there are definitely some balance issues with alpha strikes, the super-heavy detachment needs a limit in matched play games under 2K points, and something needs to be done about there being absolutely no reason whatsoever to include Troops in an army list
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:07
If you were to merge that pull req, we would get some pretty gnarly conflicts that unless you're really good with XML are a bitch to sort out
When I try to submit the changes I've made on my branch I mean
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:08
Is your branch pushed? I could try merging it into mine, I wrangle horrible merge conflicts every day at work so it's not something new to me
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:10
Not my most recent version no - I have one up on branch Alphalas, but it's a little behind lol
What's wrong with the tauroses?
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:10
They weren't actually added at the root level, so you couldn't access them
Also twin lascannon incorrectly pointed at 50, rather than 40
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:12
Ah ok
That's right I didn't link them yet
Cause I copy-pasted from El but never linked
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 15:13
Hey guys just wanted to point something out in #1109 -- yes, I closed it without actually fixing issue 1, but the reason I did so was because I can't find a reference to a "twin heavy stubber" in either Imperial Index 2 or IAI:FothAM for either a points cost or a weapon profile. Basically...it doesn't exist.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:14
Well, if you want a workaround the DKOK cat has malc's, and Elysians has the tauroes. I'll try to get AM pushed today to actually finish it
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 15:14
.....and I'm a jackass
I re-read the FAQ. It's in there. Oops. Time to do another fix.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:15
Also if you push a pull req to Elysians to fix the tauroses there I'll totally approve that PR ;)
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:15
I'll just use my own fork as a datafile for writing out the list I need for Sunday week
I'll see what I can do
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 15:19
:+1: again sorry about just closing your PR; I'll do my best to get AM done this weekend
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 15:20
do we think the codexes all having ObSec troops will help the issue?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Aug 05 2017 15:22
@CrusherJoe nah, those commits of mine are merges from other branches
Tony Aldridge
@AngryLawyer
Aug 05 2017 15:23
@alphalas no problem
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 15:29
PR #1122 will for-real close @1109 with both issues addressed (since I learned to read ALL of a FAQ...sheesh)
Once that PR is closed I'll delete the DKOK-v15 and v17 branches. I don't like leaving branches laying around LOL
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 15:49
@acebaur it may have already been destroyed last night before I saw that :(
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 05 2017 15:51
@/all release pushed. goes out in about an hour if anyone need to push
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 17:22
bit shocked at some of the cost reductions for CSM units and weapons
even abaddon has gone down in price and he was already a beast
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Aug 05 2017 17:55
That's b/c terminator calgar went from 250 to 200
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:04
are they comparable ?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 18:07
@tekton no worries if if was. I used my extra one from my storm Eagle to make the storm talon better looking
Now they seem to be not as good as in past edition so having a second isn't crucial
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 18:18
@skonk The problem is, that will require EVERYONE getting a new codex with the obsec equivalent rule. For example, I play Sisters. Without a new codex or FAQ/errata granting Battle Sister Squads an obsec equivalent, the balance just lips further and further away.
GW could fix this shit immediately with a FAQ/errata: Q: Troops really blow compared everything else and my friends are playing Pacific Rim-style Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots 40K. Can you do something? A: Oh, snap. Guess we should have seen THAT coming in all our extensive playtesting! Boy do we have egg on our face! So, yeah, all Troops have ObSec and you can only take one Super-Heavy/Lord of War choice in games of 2000 points or less. Oh, and Brimstone Horrors are now 30 points each.
DONE!
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:31
brimstones are 50% more expensive now anyway
and not all lords of war are made equal so limiting it to 1 will cause more issues
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:33
do the 30k solution - percentage limit according to points values
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:49
i dont think they should limit stuff
let the events organisers and such do that
and if someone in your gaming group is a cunt with it then just dont play with them
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:50
well here's the thing - one of the solutions in 30k is if you want a knight list, they actually have an army where knights are troops/hq/whatever; you just can only take a single allied detachment with it.
but LoWs can be max of 25% of the army.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:51
but there are millions of people out there who wouldn't actually give a shit if someone wanted to run an all knight 40k army against them
most sensible people would arrange it before hand so everyone is ok with it
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:52
then GW should take a page from FW for full knight lists tbh
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:52
so why impose actual rule limits for something that a lot of people are perfectly happy with, preventing anyone from ever doing it
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:53
because it woks in 30k with the limit
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:53
issues like this are almost always limited to events or the odd twat down the local shop
so let the events fix issues like that and leave the normal, casual, majority of players alone
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:53
i play a lot of 30k - the limit is great for perserving the game
because 30k LoWs are goddamn stupid good
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:54
because what you are suggesting is that GW should make huge changes, impose limits, restrict what people can do etc. because of your personal gripe about some thing
have you actually had to face lots of people running 4 knights?
or an army of brimstones?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:55
competitive, hell yeah
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:55
right
so let the comp organisers fix that issue
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:55
how bout this - can you agrre to that in matched play only?
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:55
no
cos 99% of games played out in the real world still use matched play
just cos i dont play in tournaments doesn't mean i i want to play with slackened rules
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:56
and they really shouldn't - why do you think GW is running konor as narrative.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:56
but if a m8 asks me if its ok for him to have a mess with some stupid spam army and i dont mind it then i sure as hell want the rules to let him
now if he was bring that list to every normal game then i'd tell him to fuck right off
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 18:57
The matched play rules are what competitive 40k players have been begging for for years - tighter, different rules for competitive.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 18:57
its human nature, why do people buy sports cars to drive around at 10mph in a city?
why to cyclists by 7 grand road bikes like the granmd tour riders so they can do the odd commute on it?
the konnor narrative is nothing but a way of selling more product
i totally get that cheesy lists are an issue in competitive arenas but I just think it should be down to those events to set their own restrictions
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:01
then you have 6 different standards, like last ed.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:01
so?
every sport or competitive game has the same thing
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:02
i want 1 standard, so there is no discrepancy going from one event to the other.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:02
then it would be boring
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:02
not when you're playng the same leauge.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:02
tennis is played on grass, clay, concrete, outdoors, indoors etc and it plays differently in every setup
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:03
if i'm racing in BTCC/DTM/F1, im subject to the same exact rules in each discipline wherever i race.
yes, the track is different, but i have to follow the rules.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:03
they're all the same over-arching sport
different flavours of the same thing
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:03
and so is competitive 40k
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:04
yes
so the BAO could have it's regular format
the LVO could do something slightly different
but when you play the same one each year it can use the same formatr
are you really saying its a good thing to force every tourny to be exactly the same?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:05
i never said that. you're putting words in my mouth, and devaluing missions. \
i'm saying i want restrictins put in force at the top level, to make changes that the competitive 40k scene better.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 19:06
so let the top level restrict it?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Aug 05 2017 19:06
the LVO/BAO/WZA all can run different missions - that makes different feels to the events.
but having the same uninform rulesets makes it more equal, even with the totally different missions
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 19:49
Here's the problem I have with what you're saying @skonk. Competitive gamers, as a rule, are massive overgrown man-child cunts that will do everything they can to abuse the rules, game the system, spam the fuck out of everything they can, and generally make the overall competitive experience fucking miserable. I play in quite a few GTs and am a TO for Wargames Con. I say this so you know I'm not making decisions in a vacuum. I have played and played against a 3 knight list and it's really not fun to play a very expensive game of Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots. The last GT I attended I played 3 knights and Celestine, and the only times I ever felt like I was in any danger of losing a game was against other multi-knight armies.
It would have been worse had it been without the ITC change to go first (which I'm still on the fence about, honestly)
I completely understand your point of view and I agree with much of it -- but for purely competitive -- and by that I mean matched -- play, there does need to be some kind of limits or you'll just see the same thing that 7th devolved into only with Pacific Rim lists, no troops, flyers out the ass and no troops to be seen on the board
I say this because I've already seen it trending that way
You should see some of the abominations in list-building we've had come in for pre-approval/list check for the WGC GT (and note: we are only doing approvals based on points cost and following the rules, the only things we're disallowing are Power Level 31 and above units)
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Aug 05 2017 19:54
If I were to run a tournament now I'd limit LOW to one unit in the army.
James
@skonk
Aug 05 2017 20:32
as I said earlier, not all lord of war's are equal
limit it to 1 and someone could run a low so powerful that all other low's will get smashed by it
@CrusherJoe my point is that "matched play" is not JUST for competitive event based games
almost everyone is playing matched, regardless of who they play with or where they play
all the issues you mention are at competitive events so thats where the limits should be placed
imo
tekton
@tekton
Aug 05 2017 21:33
We actually moved our "main" game night to narrative play since it oddly seemed more balanced; in two weeks we try a night of matched points play again
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 22:10
It's not really a unicorn, it's just a Penitent Engine
Pengine 1.jpg
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Aug 05 2017 23:48
Bobby G Left Leg.jpg
I think I'm going blind trying to paint the Lord Commander LOL