These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

4th
Sep 2017
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 04 2017 11:21
Man...reading comprehension is weak today, evidently.
Got to close to the WAAGH reactor again, didnt you?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 12:50
Dios mio!
Reading comprehension, asshole!
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 04 2017 13:08
uhm.. is that one of that context thingies again?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 13:09
It's the dude trying to argue with me in #1414
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:20
Solid answer @alphalas, hopefully that shuts him up
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:23
@Thairne apparently so. Being composed of unobtanium and with a solid core of gork (or possibly mork) ex machina you never know what those things are going to do
Re: #1414
burn-people.jpg
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 13:34
It's the same guy who was arguing it on the TS issue.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 13:35
Yeah he's arguing here now though because I directed him here
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Sep 04 2017 13:36
best analagy I can think of is what if they changed the points of the plasma gun, would militarum tempestus use the new points because its the "most up to date" rules for the plasma gun?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 04 2017 13:38
not the same thing though, since the datasheets referenced by the other chapters/legions have been overwritten by more up to date versions
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:40
Oh boy here we go
"Ah wants ta cheat and takes tha cheeeepest units Ah can to game fur advan-tuge. Plz hep me cheat, mah cheeze, Ah've gots ta have mah cheeze."
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:43
Where is he arguing this on here?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:44
I would assume on the back of wrapper for a block of cheese
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 13:44
I meant in #1414
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:44
Ah
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:46
Why haven't people figured out the two most simple concepts that will solve almost every rules conundrum in 40K (and are the guiding principles I use to make judgement calls as a TO):
  1. 40K is a permissive ruleset. In other words, you can do what the rules give you permission to do. If the rules don't say you can do it, you can't.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 13:48
@CrusherJoe, I think that's harsh. It's not trying to cheat. GW have made it unclear, and, it seems, DO support using the latest points where those points have been updated in the Codex. However, given that not everyone has to buy the Codex where their army is unsupported, i think we're correct in continuing to only support Index for those armies.
^necessarily trying to cheat
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:49
  1. If there are multiple ways to interpret the wording or phrasing of a rule or rules interaction, always choose the interpretation that is the least abusive/grants the least advantage. If it gets FAQ'd/errata'd some other way, so be it, but at least until then you're not that guy.
@ilaunchbury okay, I know this is being pedantic...but...have you ever actually been around any gamers?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 13:51
:D
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:51
My default setting is to assume that if someone is trying to do something that isn't explicitly set out in the rules is that they're trying to game the system for some individual advantage
Occams's Razor definitely applies
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:52
All rule sets are permissive
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:53
Use Index until you get Codex. Once you have Codex, use Codex. Simple. Easy. Not hard to comprehend or understand.
@acebaur you are correct but you have to start your argument on solid ground or it is easily deconstructed
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:55
No doubt
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:55
I often use hyperbole to drive the point home. "Yes, you could fling poop at your opponent, but the rules don't say you can. So you can't, at least not in the context of this game."
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 13:55
that's normally my fallback position when my opponent brings cheese
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:55
I always Err on the side of Occums Razor with GW as I believe that's how they think
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:56
And y'all please understand I'm not arguing against cheese
What I'm arguing for is legal cheese
(at least in the context of competitive/tournament play)
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 13:58
Yeah
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 13:59
A super, super simple analysis of it comes down to this:
Is unit in Index? If yes, use that datasheet/points, UNLESS
Is unit in Codex? If yes, use datasheet/points in Codex
...and that's pretty much the end of the decision making process
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:01
The problem is that GW has referred to generic units for the non codex people, so they assume that when a new dex comes out they get to continue doing that
But they don't
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:01
Actually, yes they do
I play Space Wolves
I would dearly LOVE to have 12 point power fists to use on the 18+ SS/PF TWC models I have
HOWEVA
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:02
I'm in agreement with you
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:02
That 12 point price is in Codex: Space Marines
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:02
Yeah
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:03
Until Codex: Space Wolves (or an official GW FAQ/Errata) comes out, I'm stuck using the Index points
Is it my preference to do it that way? No. Every night I pass by the lonely Thunderwolf kennels and hear them sadly whimpering a half-heartedly baying at the moon. It breaks my wolfy heart, but them's da rules.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:05
Lol
At least twc aren't broken this edition
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:06
Thunderwolves weren't broken last edition. It was when you added everything else and made a fully-operational Wolfstar that they got broken AF
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:07
What was broken was they were S10
When they should have been 8
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:07
....as they should be
S10
It was FAQ'd more than once that they were S10
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:07
Because apparently the wolf is wearing the power fist
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 14:08
it's the additional speed from charging in on the wolf :)
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:08
Lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:08
All I'm saying is they went a wee bit too far with the nerfing
S8? Okay, sure...I can see a logical argument for that

Attacks whacked in half/replaced with half marine, half wolf...okay, again, I can see the argument. I'm not crazy about it but I get it

WTF
Sorry for the crazy text there, not sure what I did
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:10
Lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:11
Mv 10"...eh...I dunno...but...okay...I...guess?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:11
They shouldn't be faster than space marine bikes imo
Also they didn't lose half their attacks did they?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:12
TWC storm shields, only ones in either Index or subsequent Codexes are 15 points each? Okay now that's just Michael Vick level wolf abuse
And finally
TH/SS are -1 to hit. Well fuck. It's like the ending of "Ol' Yeller" up in this bitch.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:13
Lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:14
OOOOOOH, and let's not forget, you're paying the same points for these units that you used to pay in 7th. FUCK YOU, SPACE WOLF PLAYERS!!! AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:14
3 S5 -1 AP is nothing to scoff at
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:14
It's like our part of the Index was written by George R. R. Martin
Compared to 5 S10 AP2 attacks hitting on 3s on the charge?
You're right, it's nothing to scoff at, it's something to mourn
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:16
Right, like I said they were busted in 7th lol
They could murder anything in the game in basically one assault phase
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:17
By themselves they weren't, though
trust me on this one
One good shooting phase would put 6-wolf units in the dirt all the time
You will, eventually, roll a bunch of ones and twos
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:18
Shooting from what though?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:18
Pretty much anything
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:18
Nothing in the marine dex
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:19
Anything that made you roll a save
No, what "broke" TWC was the Libby Conclave of the White Scars variety
...with a wolf priest on a bike
And in the final days of 7th, Celestine up front tanking wounds like a boss
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:21
I'm so glad 7th is dead lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:21
Because if that Conclave got Invis and Veil of Time (and Endurance in some super rare times)
Lemme tell you
A powered up Wolfstar that you could only hit of 6+, got to re-roll all saves, and had either a 6+ or a 4+ FNP that just rolled over the board and murdered everything to death was a sight to behold
It was also much, much harder to pilot than the Internet would lead you to believe
It was either feast or famine -- table or be tabled
And in case you're wondering: I'm glad the long nightmare/dumpster fire that 7th edition is over, too. Ding, dong, the witch is dead
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:26
Yeah 8th is so much cleaner
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:26
that 7th edition became
8th is a dramatic improvement, but it is by no means without issues, some of them very glaring and in desperate need of fixing
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:29
Which I believe they will, the new GW is significantly better at being known top of shit than the old one
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:30
Oh I know
However, the biggest issue in the game right now is pretty systemic and I'm not sure how it can be fixed
The lack of a cover system (yay, simplicity?) coupled with the new AP system and the prevalence of very high-powered shooting has made the alpha strike WAY too strong
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:34
Yeah, but at the same time, cover was overly complicated and busted
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:34
Case in point: The championship game of the NOVA Invitational was decided not by a long, hard-fought game, but by concession -- Pajamapants conceded the game after he got seized on
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:34
Seriously?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:34
Yes, seriously
It's feast or famine
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:35
Though they just need to amend it so that in between cover grants the +1
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:35
Alpha strike or lose
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:35
He must be a mtg player lol
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:35
Jesus
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:35
No, he's not
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:36
I mean I follow FTN so I get what you're saying
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:36
He's actually a very good player and he's not known for being a punk
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:36
Mtg players do that is they can't draw what they need with mulligans
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:36
Hence the seriously
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:36
That's a punk move imo though
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:36
Because I know that's not usually how pajamapants rolls
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:36
Play it out like a man
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:37
Personally, if it makes GW wake up and realize that they need to rein in the alpha strike monster a little bit I'm glad he did it
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:37
Did the Giants roll over for the undefeated Patriots?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:37
@acebaur while I'd normally agree with you, we're talking the nova invitational
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:37
Dude I know
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Sep 04 2017 14:37
You only get in it for winning events iirc
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:38
In a tournament I play down to the last model dies/game ends naturally/time runs out
If you want me to walk away from the table early you've got to table me LOL
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:38
^this
You can sieze and roll God awfully on turn one
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:38
Because there's a reason we roll dice in this game
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:39
Yup
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:39
The game I played Thursday I lost my dev squads top of turn one
Now I could have conceded and walked away like a bitch
But we were trying to learn things about our lists (not that Nick's needed any tuning)
But as a result of that humbling experience I now have a better list and a better understanding of how to play it
But the point remains
The alpha strike is too strong, and that's a systemic problem that is going to be hard to address as the game stands right now
Maybe Chapter Approved will do something about it, but I doubt it
But
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 04 2017 14:42
fixing the intervening terrain issue would go some way towards it, but i can't see that happening
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:42
The fact that I'm saying anything about "Chapter Approved" and it's not 2002 gives me hope LOL
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:42
Lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:43
The only solution that I've come up with is fortifications
And even they aren't great
I thought they were until I read the damned rules for them -- they can only hold one unit each (as opposed to transports), which makes no sense
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:48
I thought fortress of redemption could hold more?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:49
Negative. "Any number of INFANTRY CHARACTERS, and one additional unit of INFANTRY"
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 04 2017 14:50
Yeah I must be remembering the old one
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 04 2017 14:52
Yeah I thought I'd finally cracked the code until I read that line
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Sep 04 2017 15:11
so 1 jakero, yes I am salty about them not being characters