These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

19th
Sep 2017
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:32
Okay the Primaris stuff has a joke, really -- there's nothing in Codex: Space Marines to get all that excited over. I mean yeah yeah Bobby G but he's not exactly new. C:SM is pretty much Index: Part 2: The Point Fixening
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:33
Lol Bobby G
I'd agree with that, though the redemptor is cool
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:33
Codex: Death Guard was written by some old-skool Games Workshoppers that hadn't gotten the memo that codex creep was supposed to be a thing of the past. That book is BROKEN AF
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:34
I haven't read it through yet
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:34
Yo dawg I heard you like mortal wounds with your mortal wounds so we made a codex that deals mortal wounds with it causes mortal wounds
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:34
What's busted in it?
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe points up
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:34
It takes mortal wound spam to a new level
Mortarion and the Deathshroud
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 11:35
they've basically got 20 different ways to deal mortal wounds one at a time
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:35
With psychic stuff?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:35
got to love some MW
psychic, auras, unit abilities, weapon abilities
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:35
Well maybe it will get toned down with a faq5
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:35
LOL
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:35
There are many broken things in C:DG. I'm pretty sure it's been on the Island of Broken Toys for years waiting to be released.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:35
and stratagems as well.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:36
Yep
They can cause mortal wounds in pretty much all phases of the game
It's effin' stupid
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:36
Lame
Do they have any weakness to make up for it?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:37
they're slow?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:37
They're slow....oh no wait they can advance and treat weapons as assault
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:38
What's their average speed?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:38
5" for all the infantry
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:38
Also advance is random and you take a - 1 to shoot
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:38
not DG, they have a rule which excepts them
full BS shooting for all weapons after advancing
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:39
Lame
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:39
and double-taps on rapid fire up to 18" at all times.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:39
Double lame
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:41
So yeah, I can see where that Winters guy was salty after reading the MW porn that is C:DG
But FFS codex creep is BAD, the game doesn't need it
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:42
Definitely not
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:42
And AdMech has Leafblower-quality shooting with Kastelan Robots alone
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:42
I was hoping that was a thing of the past
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:42
The only thing I can see as maybe being a balancing factor is points cost
C:DG seems to be somewhat appropriately costed
They aren't a horde army that's for certain
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:43
Silver lining
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:43
Which has always been the thing, y'know?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:44
Yeah
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:44
Wraithknights were bonkers for their cost in 7E
Now that they're appropriately costed you don't see them everywhere
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:44
Yeah and then the toe in cover bullshit
Hi my foot is in this ruins
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:45
Don't even get me started on that
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 11:45
i've stopped seeing them because the no longer get to soulburst - ie. 3 shooting phases per turn
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:45
I get cover from your face melting demolisher cannon
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:45
kastelans,a fter what I know (never fielded one) got even worse. You got a stratagem to switch their protocol to double tap without using a datasmith... which was a tax unit in the first place AND had to wait till T2 to use it.
they still screw stuff up. But thats the first I've heard of that MW spam from DG...
wasn't MW supposed to be RARE?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:45
Oh boohoohoo AdMech tears taste like candy LOL
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:46
Lol
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:46
:D
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:46
Yeah MW was supposed to be rare
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:46
"Ah can't start blowing things off the board until turn 2...mah cheese...Ah've gots ta have mah cheese on turn 1"
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 11:46
they're still rare, because Only DG can spam them :)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 11:46
it just feels like a cop-out for anything that isnt a shooting or melee attack
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:46
Lol
Except for smite
Which everyone can spam
Except my army lol
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:47
lemme check kastelans quick.. no idea how bad they actually are...
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:47
You can't see how bad they are in a vacuum
Scroll down until you get to the Klownbots section
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:49

well
9 S6 AP-2 D1 ignore cover per bot
times 6
with double tap protocol
and rerolls from a TPD

thats like 108 shots rerolling

that sounds bad enough
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:50
Plus their busted repulsor shit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:50
Here, I'll quote:
I am of course, talking about the uber combo of a full unit of 6 Robots with maxed Heavy Phosphor Blasters supported by Cawl and a unit of Destroyers, taking advantage of the Wrath of Mars and Elimination Volley stratagems. What this amounts to is a unit that puts out 108, 36″ range, strength 6 shots that are AP-2, ignore cover, hit on 3’s with rerolls and deal mortal wounds in addition to normal damage on wound rolls of a 6+. That is bonkers damage output, and few things in the game can take that and survive. This is further exacerbated by the fact that each Robot can send his 18 shots downrange at a separate target! Now, thankfully, when the Robots kick in their Protector Protocols it doubles their shots, no longer letting them shoot twice. This is a subtle but important distinction as they are not as efficient as they were. This combo also requires 4CP per turn to use, and costs 1,120pts+ to pull off. That all fits snugly in a patrol detachment, too, but you have to farm up a lot of command points in order to make this work, at least 8-12. You can make it function without the Destroyers who are pricey (but they go up to BS 3+ as well with the Elimination Volley stratagem and pump out serious firepower themselves) but you drop from 89% accuracy to 75%. If that’s worth saving the 2CP a turn is your call. Also, the Robots cannot go full speed on this until turn 2, and they cannot move if they use it. Without a Datasmith (further increasing the cost) they have to use a CP to activate their protocols and if they do, they can never change which isn’t a big deal unless they get tagged in melee in which case they will be unable to leave. And that is the other side of it: they are very vulnerable to getting shut down in the shooting phase through melee. Lastly, line of sight blocking terrain (which is utterly critical in 8th ed) makes this uber unit less viable as they can’t move when in mega mode.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:52
well TBF we're talking about 1000+ pts
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:53
So...yeah, Winters and any other AdMech player that's salty after reading that, is, frankly, quite cordially invited to dine upon a penis.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:53
1125 pts to be exact
you're aware the rest of the codex is really inferior after what I'Ve read?
Kastelans are the Thunderwolves of 7th
broken as fuck
but the rest? meh.
nerf kastelans, give me more units to use
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:54
That doesn't seem to be OP broken, that's a lot of points and command points to spend on a single unit
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:54
if you get alpha struck by these things...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:54
I mean yeah they are busted in a vacuum but there are a lot of other factors in a game
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:54
you can pack your stuff and elave I'd wager
if you can tie them up in melee you can have a coffee while the game is on auto loss mode
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 11:55
Lol
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:55
kastelans with protector can't move, therefore can't fall back
reminds me a bit of noise marines in 7th - a 36" "dont go here" zone
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:56
Y'all remember when getting locked in combat meant something?
Oh, it was glorious
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:56
and that is what you can do to Kastelans
glorious, aint it?
now, if you actually SCREEN the kastelans with, say, Vanguard...
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 11:56
Still to lock 'em down you STILL have to survive their overwatch
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 11:57
ever got shot by 50 conscripts?
thats quite a few overwatch hits too
shooty units are shooty
if you get in there, you can lock down 700 pts
cant do that with 100 pts, butif you invest 400 in locking 700 you made a good deal
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:02
Getting shot by 50 S3 AP0 D1 conscripts -- even in RF2 mode -- just tickles compared to 108 S6 AP-2 shots that also cause MW on 6+ wound roll
One is getting licked by a kitten. The other is getting mauled by a rabid mountain lion.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 12:03
and tbh, if you're getting hit by 50, you're assaulting from the wrong place :)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 12:03
also, 50 conscripts is 150pts
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:04
alright, lets say 220 conscripts. 5 pts less
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:04
Nobody takes conscripts for their damage output
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:04
thats 440 S3 AP0 D1 shots
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Sep 19 2017 12:04
It would still cost the admech player 4 cp to do that when charged, with a far lower payback than usual.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:05
that's 3 wounds more for the Kastellans, implying that they wound on 2 and conscripts on 6
12 vs 15
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:06
mmmm, AdMech player tears are about to become the new Chaos Marine player tears I can feel it
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:06
could you jstop with that old line? its getting a bit old
I get a feeling that some admech player touched you in a naughty spot
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:07
Fair enough
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:07
currently, there are 2 good units in the dex. Electropriests and kastellans.
noone doubts that or argues against it
one is expensive points and cp wise to run to max efficiancy
and one is very sqishy
*squishy
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:08
You forget I'm holding the trump card when it comes to Codex complaints
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe plays Sisters of Battle LOL
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:09
tbh the only one I heard complaining is you.. I didn't watch that winter dude wine and neither is the dakka forum e.g. full of whiners. The mostsaid thing is "kataphrons need a points drop" and "rangers are slightly too expensive compared to vanguard"
both of which seem valid points
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:10
Eh...I'm not complaining, really. I'm just pointing out that you can't throw the whole codex out as trash when there are some REAL superstars in it
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:11
you indeed can't
but I think most people want a codex where everything is useable and not just 2 superstars
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:11
And if that came off too strong or as too much, I apologize. I tend to work in hyperbole and sometimes I don't know when to stop.
I will also say this: AdMech needs some kind of transport. I'm wholly mystified by the lack of one in the new 'dex.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:12
accepted.
Just don't do that "feast on admech tears" that often, it is a rather polarising choice of words ;)
Hope is on Fires of Cyraxus or whatsitsface
that conveyer thing would be tremendeous
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:13
What I am also curious about is what and/or how they're going to do Dark Mechanicus
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:13
I dont think they'll get a model any time soon
they're a niche in a niche...
you KIND of have parts with the demon engines
maybe a few conversion kits for admech kits Id wager... probably from FW
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:19
I guess it's one of those things -- I never expected them to actually DO DM and now it looks like they actually are, at least in some fashion
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:19
how come?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Sep 19 2017 12:19
As you said, niche within niche
Then again...they're also bringing back a version of Epic, so miracles never cease in this new GW world
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:20
w0rd
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 12:21
How do you know there isn't a transport in the new dex?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:21
GW said so
I think in some stream or on twitter
they also said something about no new HQ because they didnt want Jes to be boxed in when designing a new miniature or something like that
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 12:26

partially wrong

We decided that the Canticles were the stronger image for the Army wide rule. However, they do pop back up in the Codex.
We didn't want to box the miniatures designers in, so we are waiting to see what sort of awesome HQ comes out of the mind of Jes...

His reply upon being asked why Doctrina Imperatives were removed and why there was no Skitarii HQ option.

Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 12:35
You mean boxed into designing another boring HQ with zero options because GW is lazy :p
Owlsbane
@Owlsbane
Sep 19 2017 13:04
We know there is no transport because the codex has reviews already and those say there are no transports.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 14:16
Ah
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Sep 19 2017 14:17
dont expect future transports either. I just dont think they'll do it anytime soon... which is especially jarring since skitarii didnt get their scout back afaik
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 14:23
Aren't skitarrii barely above servitors anyway?
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 14:49
Omg the supporting plate
Is broken as shit
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 15:01
@ilaunchbury where do you see the bit about DG ignoring the -1 on advance?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 15:02
"Inexorable Advance" opposite warlord traits
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 15:02
p96
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 15:04
funnily enough it only applies to codex helbrutes, and not any FW dreads like the other legions tactics
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Sep 19 2017 15:06
Wow
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Sep 19 2017 15:07
Yeah,I wish on the chaise side, legion tactics affected Dreadnaughts as well
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Sep 19 2017 15:09
it does, C:CSM tactics applies to Daemons Princes, INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTES
and all the FW dreads have the HELBRUTE keyword
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Sep 19 2017 15:10
Do they? I'll have to look again
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Sep 19 2017 15:10
yes, got added in the FAQ.
except 1, and i can't remember which.