These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

10th
Oct 2017
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 05:31
Only if the building is not on fire... Otherwise they're rather handy... :wink: hope you weren't outside too long!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 06:18
I'm currently putting together my shop's first tournament for 8th, and I'm wrestling with the same wysiwyg issue, especially now that more than just marines have subfaction rules
my current solution: "unless converted and painted as such, models which usually identify to a particular subfaction will be assumed as such. e.g. primed Cadian models will be assumed to be a Cadian regiment, and will not be allowed otherwise without adhering to the above"
@CrusherJoe
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 07:29
Yeah, sounds good to me, "why did you buy cadians if you didn't want to play cadians?" might not be popular with some people though... Although, modelling is a large part of the hobby after all!!
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Oct 10 2017 07:34
ya know, there's a bit of beef with that
lets say you bought skitarii and liked the classic red scheme when the dexes came out in 7th. Now 8th drops and suddenly you dont like the mars rules,but Ryza... am I to strip and repaint my entire collection?
its a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario if you ask me...
as long as you dont mix forge worlds/chapters/regiment you can call cadians vostroyans all day
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 07:35
Just buy moar!!
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Oct 10 2017 07:36
(and possibly get a snort from me)
if they'd come prepainted I'd tend to agree :P
but ya know, painting takes TIME
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 07:37
Hehehe
I don't know what you mean (looks at "to paint" pile...)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 07:37
ok, now more ppl are awake
OK, BS data hivemind. See #1600. Should DG Lords and Sorcs be allowed Jump Packs?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 07:38
its an option in the index same as with the palanquin lords right?
just make them use the index for legacy options, done
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 07:39
ok, I can see that (even though it's clearly wrong bc GW don't allow ANY jump pack options for DG)
which power set do they get? Dark Hereticus for Warptime WAAC bullshit without taking an extra detachment, or Contagion?
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Oct 10 2017 07:43
just recolor the base edges of detachments with different <keywords>
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Oct 10 2017 07:43
gasp
efficient HERESY!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 07:47
that I can't answer, but the result of GW insanity seems to be 'pick one'
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 08:41
Surely if you're playing death guard you choose either from the codex, or the death guard section of the index...?
I don't think the intention is to allow options from the chaos space marine section to be used with not-C:CSM codex units...
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 08:43
DG in the Index refers to the main CSM entry for Sorcs
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 08:52
@FarseerVeraenthis any bets on what gets deprecated in our codex?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 08:55
There are a couple of Autarch options they don't make models for any longer.
I can't think of much that isn't still sold apart from that...
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Oct 10 2017 08:56
any semblance of balance :smile:
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 08:56
lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 08:57
I'd laugh if all the phoenix lord but irrlyth died
"we couldn't be fucked to update the sculpts"
I'm going to get some warp spiders soon
but they won't be GW ones
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 09:01
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET!
those are pretty. I WANTS THEM
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 09:10
also https://www.facebook.com/ghostminiatures/ for those that play at tolerant FLGS
I play at an actual GW so the rule is minimal 3PP
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Oct 10 2017 09:11
they are are really nice
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 09:11
i'm not sure which I like better.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2017 09:13
I'm going for WGE because slightly cheaper and I love the exarch posing
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 11:23
@WindstormSCR those models are lovely, but I'd hate to spend ages painting them and then not be able to use them if I fancied going to a tournament... Otherwise, perhaps they'll release some new Autarch sculpts with proper weapon options...!
Lemme check the infex
Drat, I don't have it on Google books :-(
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 11:33
Anyway, looking at the range on GW website I don't think much will change apart from points going down...
And @ilaunchbury that just makes a horrible link and a incredible mess... Who knows what the right answer is!
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2017 13:24
:+1: @WindstormSCR I like it
Don't let the scrubs inevitable pushback stop you, either
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe eyes the show notes on the latest FTN podcast
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2017 14:03
"Smite may be too strong"
OH REALLY? Please tell me more!
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2017 14:05
Yeah I really like FTN - they’re pretty good eggs imo
Kinda curious why mbg, juice and Kenny split off to do TLW, but definitely still prefer FTN
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2017 14:07
Kenny is definitely talented with an airbrush
But the new opening song to his videos is just a circle jerk with him as the biscuit and I find it disgusting
Also
KEEPIN' IT ICY GANGSTA DAWGS
Ugh
I find that affectation style of speaking demeaning and offensive
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2017 14:09
Yeahhh...
Between juice and Kenny it did get pretty low-brow lol
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Oct 10 2017 14:52
most of the guard super-heavies got serious buffs to their main weapons
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2017 15:04
looks like we have someone previewing the unreleased AM files - #1605
tekton
@tekton
Oct 10 2017 15:51
@FarseerVeraenthis not just a building, a large swath of the hills around here are on fire and we had to evacuate our horse and I've been helping neighbors evacuate as well
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2017 15:51
@tekton Bay Area?
tekton
@tekton
Oct 10 2017 15:52
@alphalas southern california- fire went from 25 acres at 10am yesterday to close to 5k acres by 4pm
norcal has like 15 major fires, too- but in semi sparsely populated areas which means less infrastructure to help, thus it spread super, super quick
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2017 15:54
Damn
I have some friends I haven’t talked to in forever up in north bay
tekton
@tekton
Oct 10 2017 15:56
If they're up in wine country they've been effected in some way- be it ash raining on them on up to loss of everything. My Sister-in-Law lives in one of the canyons up there, too. It's a brutal week.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:38
Anyone know if a script to delete empty attributes and/or tags would totally kill the app?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:39
@/all i dont know who is on the r/minipainting discord, but if anyone want to get some scale75 items, there is a once use 10% off order total for october with code MINIPAINTING
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:43
@capitaladot Are you trying to save size? Or something else?
Especially given that not everyone has every field filled in ....
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:43
Save size. Our main file is over 6 megs, and fruit-flavored devices can't hack it.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:44
Are we talking old fruit flavored? Or new?
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:44
Even Windows desktop with 32bit Java choke.
Mostly older.
Last two or three generations seem okay.
Is there a known max usable file size?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:44
my G4 was a tad slow even. updated to an s8+ and im fine now.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:45
Looks like the 7th ed SM file was about 3 megs.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:45
That’s really a @Jonskichov question :worried:
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:45
I hoped (perhaps in vain) that the active editor users might have some idea.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:45
If the rules are stripped out, how much does that drop the file size?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:45
im still of the opinion to move to sql db over xml hash
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:45
Not an option for us.
JSON, YAML, some kind of mark-down would all be better than XML.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:46
i talked to jon briefly about it once. he has always contemplated it, but never acted on it
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:46
yeah, well, the big CAT's in 7th were starting to fall over... so if your CAT is 6MB, that twice the size of the old SM one...
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:47
Yeah, it definitely kills older fruit flavored devices.
... and consistently doesn't work on 32bit JREs on Windows.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:48
The question might be why? Is it an interpreter issue? That sounds like a memory limitation.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:48
@OftKilted leaving out the rules is impractical because they're spread around 6 different huge black books and four bigger-than-codex books.
Plus, the 7th ed BRB.
It is fundamentally a memory limitation.
It takes a gig of RAM to load the file in Windows 10.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:50
Why does the 7th brb come into it?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:50
HH still uses 7th
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:50
Ahh.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:51
Supposedly, based on Community announcements and event comments, they're issuing some kind of HH specific version of the 7th ed BRB; whether that means expensive reprint (most likely) or rules changes/FAQ incorporation, it remains to be seen.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:52
im pretty sure it is just going to be a HH BRB with 7th+the HH univeral rules/units.
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:52
In any case, it appears that 7th-ish is here to stay.
That would be an enormous book.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:53
i mean, this is FW we are talking about. Maybe not the units. but all the rules for sure
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:53
If it fixed points costs for the severely overcosted units (Destroyers, Seekers) and severely broken units (Sniper Vets, Quad Mortars), it would be worth it.
I suspect it will just be lipstick on a pig with a shiny red cover on the same 7th ed rulebook everyone already has 10 of.
I hope to be mistaken. :)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:54
is there a way to break the CAT down to smaller sub-factions or something??
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:54
@FarseerVeraenthis I’m not sure that Jon every did the work to allow that
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:54
Maybe with the strategy that you guys have used for kicking FW out of the main file... but that is really cludgy to use and likewise breaks the math.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:55
another reason to use DBs instead of xml :p
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:56
Something with a query language would be cool, but manually reading/editing database files would be worse than the status quo of dealing with XML.
Something like JSON or YAML would be much better in that regard, perhaps using some kind of NoSQL document store.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:57
yeah. moving to db would also be creating a custom DB editor
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:57
erm... surely you could use a slightly "homebrew" keyword system in the same way the CAT's work for 8th...?
I mean, the keywords don't display so it's not like anyone would notice
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:57
What would said Keywords be used for?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:58
to allow cross-CAT validation
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:58
I've started using Categories for things already.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2017 18:58
Do we have a cross cat validation example that’s in use?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:58
so if you break the CAT down into something like Troops/HQ/Heavy Support or similar
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:58
The problem is, the FoCs are actually mutable, and to be mutable, have to be defined in the individual CATs.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 18:58
the ability to manipulate the keywords in groups are kinda needed i think to be what is needed in HH files
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:58
So cross-CAT is mutually exclusive.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:58
arse
and @OftKilted cross-cat validation is standard in 8th ed BS file
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 18:59
I thought it didn't actually work with FW?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 18:59
you can build detachments with as many CAT's as you like
well, in the 8th Ed files we rolled FW into the main files
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:00
Not for AStartes?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:00
you have a parent CAT, and then child CAT's within the same detachment structure
and there are only limited separate FW CAT's - Astartes is one because there are so many FW only units
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:01
Right, but doesn't that break FoC slot math?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:01
no :smile:
but the FoC in 8th is fixed
whereas yours can change depending on which way the wind is blowing
I'm not sure if that would cause trouble
the only trouble we've experienced with child detachments is that sometimes BS doesn't update the points quite right when you increment models in a squad
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:04
Yeah, we have that problem, too, if you pick some option that is X points per model, it sort of gets stuck.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:05
uhuh, same here, it is a BS bug that we've asked to have fixed... the work around is close and re-open the roster
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:07
Or de-select and re-select the per-model choice, or implement that rather tedious "choose gun per model" option.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:08
I have found for unit options, like hellblasters, if it is an increment cost, using "x per model” works
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:09
However, doing the "choose option per model" strategy is, I think, a major contributor to file size, given all of the empty tags and attributes the editor generates.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:09
instead of “x per <deirectly select>"
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:10
yeah, using collective might help, but that's more for formatting the output than file size
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:10
I agree, collective does look better in output.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:10
I mean, it's a slightly different perspective but you could look at @WindstormSCR 's mobile files??
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:10
I think that is the "don't nest so much" approach, right?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:10
file size will only go down with back end help. we cant omit attributes. just leave tthem empty. so...
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:11
yeah
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:11
Do we know we can't omit attributes? We don't have a DTD or anything to tell us what is required.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:11
you could do a "find and replace" on New Selection Entry and then replace it witha space
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:11
Like, I could write a pre-release script or something that removes empty tags and attributes.
... and get it installed by Amadeus as a release hook on the repo or something.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:12
just make a copy and try to load it with a entry that has been stripped
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:12
I mean, to a certain extent, if you know how to do that you can create your own personal repo and twiddle about with the fiels - try it and see what happens..!
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:13
I suspect doing so would involve quite a bit of trial and error, and I wonder to what extent the roster editor is purely read-only.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:13
hahaha! great mind @flakpanda
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:13
I feel like I have seen the roster editor reformat a file.
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:13
well, just put the theory to test first. you need your proof-of-concept proven first. start there
manually strip one entry, and try to load it
then if it works, figure out scripting and all that
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:14
I'm pretty sure I have done this and had no ill result, but I suspect there may be things that can't be removed without issue.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:15
otherwise, you're into the labourious task of sifting through all the entries to remove duplication and convert entries to shared amd so on... even then you might not gain much and you could introduce problems...
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:15
well, you can never strip out the ID :p
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Oct 10 2017 19:15
hahaha!
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 19:15
LOL... I wouldn't strip anything that is actually populated. However, all of the empty closed tags...
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Oct 10 2017 19:16
imo, entries can be stipped down to just anything pertinent. no references, etc...
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2017 21:16
PR created to fix #1605
Austin C.
@capitaladot
Oct 10 2017 21:24
@flakpanda I think an analysis would quickly find that just the empty tags, angle brackets, and linebreaks add much more to file size.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2017 21:34
Added commit to existing PR for #1589