These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

29th
Nov 2017
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 08:27
@CrusherJoe she looks alright to me, maybe dab some eyes in but she's good to go otherwise :+1: unless you're planning a golden demon entry of course, then there's a little more work to do...! :wink:
Francesco Venturoli
@Crowbar90
Nov 29 2017 11:23
@alphalas sorry I didn't see your post yesterday... I have already updated all points for the catalogs I mantain (with points mantained locally in the cat) according to CA 2017. I'll switch Blood Angels wargear entries with GST shared entries when the codex drops, then I'll do it with the other catalogues.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 12:24
@flakpanda Yes I think I'm going to run her in my Guard list. Leadership 10 aura is hard to beat, plus she can deny 2x turn with +1 on the deny roll
@skonk I know the feeling which is why I try to bang all the way through a project at once -- it's pretty much the only way I finish things
@FarseerVeraenthis Yeah I have a hard time with faces, and boy pictures don't help at all -- and I'm surely going nowhere near a Golden Daemon entry LOL. My painting standard is "don't get laughed off the table".
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 12:44
@Crowbar90 cool; I was more referring to adding in the newly un-lost relics BA get (tart/cata/contemptor/stormtalon etc) lol
Also @Kohato FUCK PAINTING NIGHTHAUNT!
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 12:57
I just started a big Flickr image dump session; I finally got that death/nighthaunt/Deathrattle/soulblight/nonsense army out the door
The worst part is there’s another local guy who runs like twice the amount of spirithosts I painted
That army makes me twitch
My buddy’s painting my seraphon for me; so now onto BA
Mine and a commission simultaneously lol
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:32
@GenWilhelm because it is 2 models forming the team, it costs 10pts
Literally ALL the Guard HWTs are that way
Lemme quantify that statement, all the NON-HWS HWTs
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:33
this is 8th edition. it doesnt matter how you get there, you only pay for what your list actually contains in its finished state
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:34
@GenWilhelm but if we were doing it wrong in Guard we’d know by now
Considering there have been SEVERAL major events since 8th came out
Your GSC cat is the only one that’s not following the established pattern
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:35
because apparently i'm the only author that doesnt subscribe to that interpretation
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:36
Because that’s also how the tourney scene interprets it
“...Two Neophyte Hybrids may form a single NHWT...”
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:40
correct
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:41
You still have to pay the initial cost for 2 Neophytes, just like you have to pay for a power sword upgrade to have access to relics that replace power swords
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:41
where does it say that?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:42
It’s right there; TWO NEOPHYTE HYBRIDS.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:44
again, in 8th edition you only pay for your final list, regardless of what options you take along the way
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:47
So by that logic, a SM character that doesn’t have a PS, that takes one to take a relic, doesn’t have to pay for the PS
it’s incorrect man
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:48
no, because the relics section specifically says you still say the points cost for any wargear that is replaced by a relic
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:49
Ok, so since I obviously took the wrong stance on stuff worded like that before, what if that’s the example not the exception?
Where specifically does it say you DONT pay for 2 hybrids (or guardsmen, whichever) that form a HWT?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:50
in the rules. it says you pay for each model in your army. the two neophytes are not part of my army, therefore i dont pay for them
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:50
And yes, I’m referring to how it turns out CF were the example not exception for named chapters with keywords being allowed to pick CTs
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:51
CF?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 13:51
Crimson Fists
They confirmed in a community post that all the FW chapters can just pick their CT
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:52
okay, i dont see the parallel
James
@skonk
Nov 29 2017 13:55
have you all managed to get access to the chapter approved changes yet?
i may be able to get hold of the book later today so if needed i could do some pics of anything missing
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 13:55
ive only seen points costs
James
@skonk
Nov 29 2017 14:09
i was having a read of it in the shop earlier
i have the limited edition on order tho which wont come till the weekend but a m8 may be buying the normal one so i'll have access to it later
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 14:20
@acebaur you got a ePub on Preorder?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 14:23
@GenWilhelm I agree with @alphalas
For Guard you buy the squad 10 dudes, 4 pts each. 2 of those dudes form a HWT (for no additional cost, it specifies that in the Codex)
But you still pay the cost for the 2 dudes that form the HWT
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 14:26
The squad is still a SGT and 9 dudes
Just 2 of those dudes are a HWT
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 14:27
Just like you still pay for the dude with a special weapon
All forming a HWT does is allow taking a heavy weapon
It just takes 2 of the 10 you already pay for to do it
I would love for it to be otherwise but unfortunately it's not
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Nov 29 2017 14:56
We've been over the HWT cost issue several times in AM tickets since the Codex came out (and I think before). The consensus came out that they cost the same as two Guardsmen and count as two Guardsmen. They just happen to be 1 base.
Francesco Venturoli
@Crowbar90
Nov 29 2017 15:01
@alphalas oh, I'll just wait for the Codex before I add that stuff. Since I'll be adding Keywords too I'll just do everything at once!
Axis of Entropy
@axisofentropy_twitter
Nov 29 2017 15:02
@skonk were there Necron point changes? Those weren't in the pics
James
@skonk
Nov 29 2017 15:02
off the top of my head im not sure but hopefully i can get a photo later today for you
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 15:07
@Crowbar90 curses lol - aight fair play lol
I’m just excited and being impatient
I’ve been copying the active PRs into my branch so I can sync them to my BS lol
Francesco Venturoli
@Crowbar90
Nov 29 2017 15:08
haha i'm pretty excited about that too :)
if anyone is curious, thats my project log for the commission I just finished.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 16:09
@alphalas how do you find the paint handle? Also, how long did it take to paint all those models? Would have taken me about two years... (hence why I would never consider becoming a commission painter!)
Arne Kreutzmann
@dragongame
Nov 29 2017 16:33
Regarding the HWT ... are there points for the Veteran HWT in the Codex?
If yes, you don‘t pay for the guys but for a HWT. But if not, than the current practices is the correct one.
Why? because a company command squad get Veteran HWTs.
James
@skonk
Nov 29 2017 16:52
2017-11-29 16.51.48.jpg
the only necron points changes are those for forgeworld stuff
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Nov 29 2017 17:24
That may mean Necron and Tau codexii in February. Maybe.
If you've got the book in front of you I'd love to hear about the new Apocalypse rules
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 17:29
@dragongame negative; and the only points for HWTs in the codex are the HWS version, which are 6pt per.
Arne Kreutzmann
@dragongame
Nov 29 2017 17:34
Just as I thought!
Thank you
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 18:11
...which means...?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:27
@GenWilhelm can you site which rules for the gsc hwts, down to page and paragraph, to cost no points? Or how they are a separate unit? I saw the email chain and you are hurting my brain
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:35

Big rulebook p214:

Simply add up the points values of all the models and weapons in your army

Index: Xenos 2 p142:

Unit: Neophyte Hybrids | Points Per Model: 5

My army:
1 unit of Neophyte Hybrids:
. 1x Neophyte Leader
. 7x Neophyte Hybrid
. 1x Neophyte Weapons Team
. 8x Autogun
. 1x Heavy Stubber

Cost of the unit:
. 9 models x 5 points per model = 45 points
. 8 autoguns (8x0) + heavy stubber (1x8) = 8 points

Total = 53 points

Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 18:37
So you're saying that a NWT is a single model, even though it takes two of them to form the Team
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:37
yes exactly
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 18:37
I recognize your stream of thought
I just don't agree with it
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:38
one base =/= one model
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:38
its a single model for all other rule purposes, why should it not be a single model for its cost?
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:38
it has 2 wounds...
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:38
so do a lot of models
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 18:38
I've discussed this with several TOs and they all agree it's two dudes (which you pay for) and they form the team.
There's no subtraction of points -- and if the team itself were an option it would be priced out separately
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:39
i guess, it there a definition of what a model is somehwere?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Nov 29 2017 18:39
Well, "pointed" out separately
But it's not -- it's taking the two dudes that were part of your basic squad -- which you pay for up front -- and making a team out of them, which allows them to take a heavy weapon
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:41

which you pay for up front

this is fundamentally incorrect

Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 18:42
Cite me an example where you don’t pay upfront other than this
Other then your interpretation of the BRB
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:42
it can be construed either way from the wording in the brb...
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 18:42
Exactly
Which is why I want another example
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:48
if the unit min is 9 hybrids and 1 leader, how can you conform to the unit mini if you exchange 2 for 1 HWT, making the model count 1 leader and 8 hybrids?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 18:48
^this is a valid point @GenWilhelm
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:48
with your logic, you would have to do 1 leader, 8 hybrids, and 1 hwt
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:50
we've had this discussion before and came to the conclusion that if the datasheet allows it, it supersedes the restrictions in the point values section
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:52
it clearly stats: "...two Neophyte Hybrids may foam a single Neophyte Heavy Weapons Team;..." the HWT still constists of two hybrids
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:52
okay, but that doesnt make it two models
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:53
blob
still need 10 models
so either we all have been doing wrong, and you are correct
minus one model
or you are wrong and everyone plays HWTs wrong as one model
or...
GW needs to clarify that the cost of HWTs are the cost of 2 models inside squads that can use HWTs
i beleive those are the three conclutions we all can see here, agreed?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Nov 29 2017 18:57
yep
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 18:59
however, they majority agrees with the latter of those options
and i mean majority of the community
not just here
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 18:59
^this
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 19:00
this includes TOs
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 19:00
So, I would make the suggestion that for consistency sake the GSC is changed to reflect the way AM is right now
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 19:01
and if we are to become the standard for list building/checking, we need to be consistent in our methods
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 19:01
That way, if you are right, we are consistently wrong
Fuck I hate it when I sound like DS Hunter -.-
flakpanda
@flakpanda
Nov 29 2017 19:02
regardless if you agree with them or not. i am not trying to discount your logic, because i can understand your thought path
but we need greater clarification
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 19:02
I just want to make it clear I see your logic too @GenWilhelm
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 19:12
I just completely disagree with your logic, for the reasons @CrusherJoe and @flakpanda articulated far better then myself
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:30
it's an issue that badly needs a GW FAQ, along with the weirdness that is unit sergeants that are the same name as another separate unit (see: orks and space wolves)
I have no stake in the issue, but it does seem that being consistent across cats is desirable. Even if it means @GenWilhelm gets the last laugh and we all get to wear dunce caps later and bow to his logic after an FAQ....
@FarseerVeraenthis I did some experimenting on adding WL traits to the CWE cat after the CA stuff gets merged
because phoenix lords aren't included the character list is actually pretty small, and shouldn't cause much bloat to add
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:41
Fair enough, but, see previous discussion about consistency :wink:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:42
that's the one section where I think a break is warranted, because for some factions, there are far more characters and resulting files bloat
would it be nice to have it for all? sure. but with some factions like guard having so many characters it's not practical
at least CWE only have 10 total that are valid
guard are in the 20+ range I think with all the different support characters?
R&H are even worse
I don't even want to think about the FW marines and vanilla marine cats .... >.>
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:45
Hmmm... Although, does it help list building? Is it necessary to copy even more data up from the codex/index from a even more dubious copyright perspective? (I know we have a fairly Liberal interpretation I just would rather stay on the less bad side of things)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:46
I was just going with the name of the trait to keep size down, not the full text
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:46
(and save some work)
Fair enough, but once you start down that road, people will expect it for all CAT files
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:46
and @GenWilhelm did raise some decent points on the subject in #1838
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:46
Like I anticipate they will for keywords
Ah, yes, some very good points...
I didn't realise that many files had them already
In that case, I'll get back in my box :smile: go wild :+1:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:49
not to mention sometimes I forget people don't have as good a memory of book contents as I do
so just having the "I meant to give this guy this thing" can be helpful even if it changes
now I'm off to pick up my bonesingers, I'll poke at it but I want to wait to implement until after the CA stuff is pulled into the main so I can update my fork
also I buggered up the warp hunter change, I thought it read 205 not 285
(there goes my desire to have one)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:52
I picked up my bonesinger last weekend, hence why I was building lists the other day...
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:53
should I make you an intruction guide for that wraithseer conversion? :P
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 20:53
I decided I originally wanted an iyanden army, so I'm just going to suck it up and learn to paint yellow properly :smile: will be a nice change from endless black (Ulthwe and Deathwatch) :smile:
Hahaha! You could do, I already have a metal wraithlord but I could do with another - there's always room for more wraiths right?!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 20:55
if you have the space... prime white, get a few pots of averland sunset and a paint gun (I use a car detail sprayer to overcome the thickness of citadel base paint) 3:1 mix of base paint and tamiya X20-A airbrush thinner, spray in two even coats
then wash recesses with Cassandora yellow, layer/edge highlight with Yriel
paint your blue and details how you like (or just spray all the heads separately with rattle can mcragge blue) and you're 80% done
it's a basic wraithlord kit, you just need 2 spare brightlances, the spare forceshields and a headcrest from wraithblades, and a wraithcannon end barrel
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Nov 29 2017 21:03
So apparently Cawl actually went down 10pts
instead of going up
That's gonna make some people salty
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 21:07
@FarseerVeraenthis or you could have me paint it for you ;) lol
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Nov 29 2017 21:13
Hahaha! @alphalas I don't think I could afford the shipping to and back, let alone the paying you to actually paint it all... (but thanks for the offer)
And @WindstormSCR I've done that before, it turned out OK, I'll probably do it again :smile:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 21:18
I'll work on a guide when I get back
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Nov 29 2017 21:24
@FarseerVeraenthis meh that death army was only $200 to paint ;)
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Nov 29 2017 22:22
I love my Cawl model enough to play him even if he got more expensive. And it's disappointing Cawl being so good helps make Mars the only competitive subfaction choice.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Nov 29 2017 23:33
@FarseerVeraenthis you want pictures or just a text descript for the wraithseer conversion on where/what to chop