These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

30th
Dec 2017
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 02:38
So
You say that, but then you have to remember Eldar WWP filth
:-1:
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe may or may not have gotten his ass handed to him last night by Footdar. Footdar, for fucks sake. Oh, the shame, it burns, it burns...
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 02:42
So at this point I'm in favor of a 24" Deny radius
Oh, and making Dark Reapers 100 points each.
Seems legit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:37
@CrusherJoe not quite the same, less space required, and quicken makes melee WWP viable
fitting a handful of 25mms is a lot less difficult than a pod and 10 32s
what list were you facing?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:47
  1. All the Rangers. Really, like the entire Ranger Aspect Shrine. 6 units, I think?
2 Gaggle of Banshees, striving by Rapeway Portal. "But Banshees ate trash," you say. Not so, when you can't overwatch them and they tie up Russes
  1. 2 maybe 3 Flights of Swooping Hawks
(hmm numbers got fucked up)
  1. Shining Spears -- remember them? Of course not. NO ONE plays Shining Spears. Well they don't suck anymore. 4++ vs shooting is no joke
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:53
all alaitoc?
dude was playing cheesemonger build
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:54
  1. 2 or 3 Whiffs (not sure what a group of Spectres should be called, by "whiff" is what they make you do trying to shoot at them) of Shadow Spectres. "But Joe," more than one Eldar sympathizer has said, "They're soooooooo overpriced now, not worth it." Yeah. -2 to hit, asshole. Please take this dildo and go sit & spin.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:55
yeah, sounds like he was playing alaitoc cheesemongering
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:55
of course all Alaitoc. There are other kinds of Eldar now?
To be fair we were GT list testing
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:55
most of those things aren't bad by themselves, but they become problematic with alaitoc trait and when spammed.
yeah, I was gonna say it sounded like a tourney list
things I can suggest to you:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:56
And let us not forget the stars of the New Eldar Cheese Parade, Dark Rapers
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:56
basilisks hurt
and if you can use LoS will shit all over reapers
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:56
Dude
The Repeats spent most of the time wishing they had something to shoot
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:58
what was your list?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 05:58
And all the Basilisks and Manticores in the world won't save you when the whole Emperor-damned any is -X to hit, where X==some goddamned number
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 05:59
asking since I've had a decent amount of time playing my eldar against guard, I might be able to float you some ideas (I don't know what ITC missions are currently, if you were using those)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:01
Yes sir
We are
Hold on, lemme get my list
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:01
can you give me the run-down?
I know eldar can be frustrating to fight, but so can guard, so I'm thinking there's an answer in there somewhere
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:02

+++ Pure Guard Filth v1.6 Vulture-Greyfax Edition (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

  • Flyer +

Vulture Gunship
Vulture Gunship: Heavy bolter, Twin Punisher Gatling Cannons

  • No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Cadian

  • Heavy Support +

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: Cyclops

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: Cyclops

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: Cyclops

  • HQ +

Company Commander: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Relic of Lost Cadia, Warlord

Company Commander: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave

  • Elites +

Command Squad
Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Platoon Commander: Chainsword, Laspistol, The Dagger of Tu'Sakh

Special Weapons Squad: 3x Guardsman
Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer

  • Fast Attack +

Scout Sentinels
Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer

Scout Sentinels
Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser

Scout Sentinels
Scout Sentinel: Multi-laser

  • Troops +

Infantry Squad with Lascannon - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad with Lascannon - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
7x Guardsman
Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

  • No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Cadian

  • Heavy Support +

Basilisks
Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer
Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Manticore: Heavy Bolter

  • HQ +

Knight Commander Pask: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
Command Punisher: Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

  • No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Cadian

  • HQ +

Inquisitor Greyfax: 1 - Terrify

Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave

Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave

++ Total: [116 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:02
guessing 2k given the list you gave me for the eldar guy?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:02
Okay there's the list
Now
TO BE FAIR
I made some critical errors -- the biggest one was not bubble-wrapping correctly
Don't ask me why
It was an extreme herpy-derp moment
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:03
first question: do you posess conquerors?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:03
I possess one Stygian Conqueror
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:03
auto-include it
it lets you reroll any dice of your choice because of coax
including ones that would fail after modifier
fuck if you can find a way to legitimately run nothing but conquerers do that
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:06
Conqs are hard to find for that very reason LOL
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:06
you can kitbash them
if you have a turret weapon you don't use often, like say the exterminator
just use the barrel mount, file it down, add a suitable looking barrel and SB
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:07
Actually I have the FW Stygies-IV turret/cannon
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:08
the vanq?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:08
Oh yeah
Vanq
Damn it
I keep getting those confused
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:08
same principle applies there, but not worth it
I mean the LRBT with the shortass barrel
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:08
Ah yes
I know of what you speak
that coax rule
is your saving grace vs negative hit modifiers
"MAY reroll ANY hit rolls"
and they got lumbering adv
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:10
You're right, this is why they're hard to find in the wild LOL
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:11
thing is
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:11
But yeah it's probably kitbash time
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:11
they're easy as fug to kitbash
so is the annihilator, and that is also excellent
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:11
Yeah the Vanq is Heavy 1...and that ruins it
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:12
5 lascannon shots from a 170pt tank
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:12
That goes against my Guard philosophy
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:12
that's better ppLC than even the quad-las mortis dread, which is considered the most efficient imperial platform otherwise
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:12
"Less toys, more boys"
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:12
that's the thing
you only need the one
the few toys you do take you want to maximize the efficiency of, so that means paskiwhatsits, conqs, 1-2 basilisk, and an annihilator (since it can take orders)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:14
Here's my thing -- I play Cadians to I can use Overlapping Fields of Fire to +1 all to hit rolls
And then the fucker just lays on "Lightning Reflexes"
GRRRRRRR
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:14
he can only do that once, so bait it out
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:14
He's on of my best friends -- and like I said -- we were testing GT lists
If it were anyone else I'd have taken out my Jaws of the World Wolf
It's a 24" crowbar that makes "problem units" disappear
(that's...an old joke. sorry.)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:15
yeah, the best thing to do with LR is to have multiple sources of concerning fire (annihilator and a basilisk for example) and then use the annihilator to bait, but shooting at something that is considerably important
then fire off the second weapon at a real target
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe nods
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe is taking notes
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:16
example in your case, I'd probably try and slam the reapers with basilisk fire first
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:17
Also -- he built this list to be a hard counter to lists like mine (while mine isn't what you'd call "a netlist" it does contain popular Guard elements)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:17
because that forces the choice: does he risk losing reapers? or risk losing spears that could be significant gamechangers vs large numbers of guardsmen
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:17
so
I won the roll to go first, then I got seized on
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:18
so
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:18
The only work the Rapers did was they shot down my Vulture top of turn 1
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:18
let me pull up a list that a friend wiped the floor with me using
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:18
That "always hits on 3+" business and Dmg3 makes them...well, very strong (no secret there)
Everything else was relatively well hidden out of LOS
So when Rapers are shooting Infantry Squads? Fine by me.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:20
thing I think people like to forget is they're strong, but still 3+ T3 1w
good if they shoot first, but they die surprisingly easy
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:21
Understood
But when Alaitoc and in cover?
Good luck!
Personally I think the -1 To Hit mod had no part in the game, at least not army-wide
Or it shouldn't stop a re-roll that's going to result in a miss
Or, or, or
lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:24
I'm not disagreeing. to quote a post I made on dakka: "7th had a problem with invulnerables and FnP. 8th is developing a problem with hit modifiers"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:24
I agree 100%
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:24
so
this list wiped the floor with a local tourney
and I got called the devil for helping concot it
IFSs have a mortar if they're 45
its not elegant
it's brute, efficient, massed firepower
and the relic of lost cadia is as broken as armywide -1
banewolves are a sleeper choice, but very very effective
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:27
That's Guard :)
That, sir, is some filth
I love it
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:27
the list? yes
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:28
It's not that far off from mine
This is the list I'm building/painting up now (as soon as my damned Bullgryn make their way to me)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:28
for 2k, I'd look at adding some anti-flyer effectiveness
or just another annihilator to punch open stormravens
and big bugs
the nice thing about conquerors is they care not where your TC is, they don't need orders
and I find sponsons to be a waste of time, because the turret doesn't take penalties, sponsons do
by the time you add up sponsons across 3-4 tanks you could have just gotten the 5th tank
exception is of course the pask executioner
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:31
Yeah sponsons again fall against the "less toys more boys" rule
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:33
for 2k, probably I'd add some 1 more bare IFS, 1 annihilator, Techpriest and 2 platoon commanders, and 2 hellhounds to make it brigade-level
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:34

+++ Air Astramerica (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) +++

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

  • Flyer +
    Valkyries
    Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser
    Valkyrie: 2x Multiple Rocket Pods, Multi-laser

  • No Force Org Slot +
    Regiment: Cadian

  • Heavy Support +
    Manticore: Heavy Bolter
    Manticore: Heavy Bolter
    Manticore: Heavy Bolter

  • HQ +
    Company Commander: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Relic of Lost Cadia, Warlord
    Company Commander: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol
    Tempestor Prime: Chainsword, Tempestus Command Rod

  • Elites +

Bullgryns
Ministorum Priest: Chainsword, Laspistol
Plasma/GL Vets - Veterans
Scion Plasma Command Squad - Militarum Tempestus Command Squad

  • Fast Attack +
    Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
    Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
    Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer

  • Troops +
    Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
    Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
    Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
    Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
    Infantry Squad with Mortar - Infantry Squad
    Scions with 2xPlasma - Militarum Tempestus Scions

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++

  • Flyer +
    Vulture Gunship

  • No Force Org Slot +
    Regiment: Cadian

  • Heavy Support +
    Cyclops Demolition Vehicle: Cyclops
    Mortar Heavy Weapons Squad - Heavy Weapons Squad
    Mortar Heavy Weapons Squad - Heavy Weapons Squad

  • HQ +
    Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave
    Primaris Psyker: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave

++ Total: [115 PL, 1999pts] ++

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:35
looks fluff
hey, what do you know
those adjustments I just suggested?
didn't even know the points, just put them in, 1999
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:36
LOL
Funny how things like that work out sometimes
Wait -- looks "fluff"?
Is that a good thing?
Also, Scions are fiddly little things
I think painting them is worse than painting Sisters
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe is going blind painting them
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:38
just a lot of choices I wouldn't expect to see in the same army, looks like it could be fun and you probably have some sort of theme going
for a tourney list? not so sure though
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:40
My initial tests have been very positive
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:40
because I hate to trigger you, but massed dark reapers are currently a thing, mostly because of the ability to not take hit mods more than anything, an example of negative hit modifiers distorting the meta already
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:40
Yeah
I'm a TO, and I'm part of the ITC TO group
There's already discussion about what to do
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:41
if negative hit mods weren't so prevalent I don't think they'd show up as much
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:41
Gonna have to disagree with you there
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:42
it's ham-handed, but I'd cap anything that isn't a troops role at max 2, and limit detachment numbers to prevent spearhead/supcom abuse
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 06:42
Always hit on 3+ and 3 Damage in a long range platform that's probably a bit undercosted for what it does is ridiculously good
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 06:44
I don't think they should have been pricedropped in the codex, but I think if you nerfhammer them you'll just see something else take the spot. Unit spam, be it reapers, stormravens, or whatever else the flavor is that week has been a continuous problem in all results
and even if you priced dark reapers out of existance I don't think it would stop alaitoc being a top table contender, it would just fuck every Pick-up gamer who plays eldar without lube again
that's why I think the problem lies with -hit mods, since several other armies have efficiencies which almost approach reapers, but don't have the luxury of ignoring -hits
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:00
Agreed.
Personally I think -hit mods should be available to one, maybe 2 units/army max
And those shouldn't be stackable
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:03
I think -2 is acceptable for rare cases where a stratagem and a unit combine, but at some cost (example might be warp spiders + LR)
but it should cap at -2 or it just gets stupid, and -1 army traits shouldn't be a thing
+1 to existing cover bonus maybe, but that would require terrain rules that are actually interesting/meaningful, can't have that
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:06
Actually I think a better solution is maybe -1 to hit, but only at ranges of 36+"
That would prevent just LOLing your way across the table all the way to adult take
Assault range
Doh
But
Bah
I can blather off musings all day
They're just my fevered opinions and change nothing lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:08
that's the crux of it, without meaningful terrain rules -1 to hit is the only 'stealth equivalent' that isn't complete shit
but when applied excessively, breaks the entire game
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:08
That's the dumbing down effect
I appreciate the simplicity of 90% of 8e
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:09
friend of mine suggested making actual terrain rules and bumping cover bonuses above +1, since 2+ is already the save floor
heavy ruins cover for +3 for example, anti-tank weapon still fucks you, but t-shirt saves with something to hide behind are no longer shit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:09
But that 10%, man, where it's lacking it's really lacking
I'd be on board with that
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:10
and just have RG/Alaitoc/etc be +1 to the cover bonus like camo cloaks are
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:10
Replace every -1 to hit rule with +1 cover save
Done
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:11
or 5+ in the open (old cover rules)
eh, 6+ in the open maybe
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:11
Basically I don't think army rules should negatively impact the performances of the other any
Army
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:12
the best way I put it to my friend when we were bullshitting about ideas:
7th the pendulum was very heavy on the defender's side
rerollable saves, stackable FnP, cover being separated from AP
now, not only has that save been reduced, but with reroll hits everywhere, the flattened wound chart, and cover no longer being very prevalent, the pendulum has swung massively the other direction, and people are starting to find out the actual place they want to be is the middle ground somewhere
it's like conscripts
GW hit the problem from too many angles at once
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:14
Oh boy did they
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:14
8th got good reviews because attacker effectiveness "feels" better than "your army does nothing"
and is also much faster to deal with
so that 'new hotness', 'I can kill things now', 'this is much faster' shielded most of the big underlying issues for ~6 months until some of the 'new hotness' wears off and the cheesemongers have aged the cheddar
I hope they use the march update to address some of the problems at the core of things and not just a halfass patch. But to quote one of the 'thoughts for the day': "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:17
Well
There is that 40KFAQ@gwplc.com email address
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:18
I know
I'm still writing a document
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:18
Maybe it's time to organize an email campaign
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 07:18
I'm not putting fixes in it, because GW legal might worry about getting sued if they use them
but I am going to say "here is the list of stuff I think need improving, and why"
I think they could do a lot of work by just doing some serious in-house introspection of "what worked and didn't about the previous editions, and why"
since from starting in 4th to now, I've seen pretty much every kind of unit have some day in the sun
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Dec 30 2017 07:26
Ah man it's bedtime LOL. Nite all.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Dec 30 2017 08:20
@WindstormSCR you could put whatever you like in the document, just add a line at the bottom that assigns them copyright or waives your copyright...
@CrusherJoe sleep tight! :tongue:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Dec 30 2017 22:38
I'm not sure if it's the headcold I've got or just the cold outside getting to me, but I'm looking at holiday funds, the new daemons codex dropping, and the silver tower box and having a real good think about actually starting daemons. My eldar have more or less what I need, and the rest is out of stock, I do prefer having 2 armies to play, and daemons work in all 3 games (30k, 40k, AoS) without much issue