These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

10th
Jan 2018
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 01:04
oh my god
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 01:04
hm?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 01:04
that was some of the best soup i had
sorry continuing conversation from earlier, pre-pun fest
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 01:05
ah yes
my two best friends in college: the mini crock-pot I had, and my rice cooker
buy a giant bag of decent rice for pennies, spend the food budget carefully on veg and meats, make it last a whole week for a little more than 1.5x the equivalent number of meals of instant noodles :D
and with the recipies I used there was no such thing as 'overcooked'
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 01:09
i hear you lol
unfortunately I’m one of those weirdos who only likes rice in things, not as a dish
but i get you lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 01:14
that's the point though, with the crock pot you cook em separate then mix in for the final dish
and the rice absorbs the flavor of whatever was slow cooking and adds a bit of volume
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 02:17
True
Good point
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 02:34
OMG
I just came up with the name for me Slaanesh/Khorne army
Haematophilia
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 02:40
not enough killmaimburn/10
I'll eventually add some daemonettes and maybe seekers, but atm I can't really see them doing anything I couldn't do with khorne/tzeentch
GitArdnutz
@GitArdnutz
Jan 10 2018 05:15
Ki
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 09:56
Can someone confirm a BS bug for me? If I set a non-primary category on a Root Selection entry, the entry won't become visible based on a modifier.
image.png
Arkos can have either "Alpha Legion" OR "The Faithless", so I'm setting up 2 Root entries, which get hidden appropriately.
However, if I set the relevant category on the root entry, the entry doesn't get made visible.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:18
I got a thing
image.png
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 10:22
@ilaunchbury works for me
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 10:37
@skonk, can I get pics? Pretty plz?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:42
ill try to snap all the rules pages and pdf em
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:51
was a "Fluxmaster" already a thing?
and a Changecaster and Fateskimmer
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 10:52
never heard of them
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:52
Tzeentch hq's, id not heard the names before
horrors got pretty boned, especially considering the proposed beta change to smite
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 10:54
Herald of Tzeentch is now named Changecaster; Herald on a Burning Chariot is now named Fateskimmer; and Herald on a Disc is now named Fluxmaster. No stats or rules changes.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:54
ah
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 10:54
thats what a quick bit of googling got me
horrors dont have +1 to their saves anymore, do they? just 4++ base?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:56
4++ pinks, 5++ blues, 6++ brims
thats not my main gripe tho tbh
its that combined with that they only know smite
and only cast on 1 dice
so once your army casts smite twice, none of your horrors can cast anything (cos they would need a 7+ on 1 dice)
brimstones were an issue but they have now been nerfed from so many angles (and its spilled over onto blues and pinks too) that they seem like no fun to use
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 10:57
did pink's gun change much?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 10:57
the smite change is a real issue for armies like teentch daemons, thousand sons and grey knights who have loads of non-optional psykers that only know smite
18 inch assault 2 use str ap0 d1
user^
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:01
so just S:3 to S:U
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:01
yeh
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:01
i actually quite like that
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:01
i think thats a general change to a lot of units
so having heralds giving +1 str effects most things shooting now
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:02
yeah, which makes them useful for units that arent geared for melee
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:02
aye
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:27
You, sir, are a star.
That's tonight sorted then.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:31
:)
looks like fateweaver has part of his psyker rules missing
doesnt say he gets the bonus to psychic tests that his damage table suggests he should
the lord of change does say it gets the bonus tho
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:32
At least they're consistently terrible at proof-reading
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:32
aye
fair bit of unit renaming needed it looks like
i think all the heralds now have different names depending on the gods
and different names for when riding beasts or chariots etc
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:33
except Slaanesh, because fuck Slaanesh.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 11:34
lol
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:34
@GenWilhelm, I don't know what I'm doing wrong then. If I put a Category on the Root Selection Entry, BS doesn't even think the entry exists.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:40
It's not just hidden. I get a "Selection no longer exists in the data files" error.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:43
hwat
you're assigning primary category in root, right?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:49
no, I'm trying to assign a non-Primary category in root.
Arkos is EITHER Alpha Legion OR The Faithless.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:51
i mean is the primary category set by the shared entry, or by the link?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:51
Primary is set in the Shared Entry
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:51
it should be on the link if you're doing anything with categories on the link
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:53
ah, non-intuitive design!
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 11:53
probably not intended, but that's the behaviour :P
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 11:56
thx, that's sorted it.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 12:00
see, you do keep me around for a reason :D
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 12:13
given that FW Named Characters don't have a specfied Warlord Trait, I'm assuming they should be able to choose?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 12:24
yeah, codex says only those specific characters have a fixed trait
which is different from other codexes operate, probably because fabius bile doesnt have a legion
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:20
just been and picked up the rest of my nurgle haul
cards, 2 great unclean ones, snail dude, bilepiper and a tree
the rules for those trees a great
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 13:23
@GenWilhelm, I think most of the Codexes have fixed traits for their named characters.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:25
other than nids, they all say "if your warlord is a named character, they must have the trait of their chapter/craftworld/regiment etc."
whereas CSM specifically calls out the named characters and gives them each a specific trait
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 13:27
although you won't have seen it, Daemons specifies as well. Maybe it's a Chaos thing :)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:27
how many traits are there of each patron?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:27
6
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:28
cause other than that, there arent really any subfactions in daemons
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:28
but each patron has a hand full of named chars too
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:28
yeah, so that's like GK, where there isnt a variable "<>" keyword
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:28
the daemons dex also has 4 psychic discs with 6 spells in each and a small 3 spell dark hereticus for belakor
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:29
3 spell? oh no...
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:29
altho to be its not clear if he is forced to only pick from those 3
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:29
deprecation was a mistake
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:29
i reckon u could still pull from the CSM dex version since it has the same name
to me^
i suspect they will go the route of "if you own the book, use whatever"
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 13:30
yeah, probably
but why not print it in the CD codex?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 13:30
dont assume the dexes were written in the order they're being released
when the daemons dex went to print there may only have been the 3 spells in the index in existence
and it likely went to print over a year ago
hard back books take a fair bit longer to do prints runs of than softbacks
its why they stop doing the hardbacks after a while so they can do quicker print runs as needed with softback covers
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 13:48
When @WindstormSCR shut down the mobile repo, I think he put some kind of popup message on it to let ppl know it was closed. Anyone know how to do that?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 13:58
@skonk, talking of missed text in Daemons, none of the Herald's Locus powers have a "friendly" restriction. :)
take Magnus and your enemy's Tzeentch heralds give him +1 Strength!
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:00
lol
proper.... lol at that
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:11
So it looks like GW have gone full on down the "model" based interpretation of the Designer's Commentary with these renames in Daemons.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:16
dunno
it looks like the models will be re-branded with the new names
the old nurgle herald model is on sale (as pre-order) using the new nurgle heralds name
so assume this will happen with the others
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 14:17
@ilaunchbury refresh my memory, meaning?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:17
A "Bloodmaster" is a renamed Herald of Khorne with a better weapon.
and slightly different powers.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 14:18
No the “model interpretation” in regards to designer’s commentary?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:19
The Designer's Commentary states "does your model have a datasheet in a Codex?"
if you click that, the model is now sold as a Bloodmaster
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:19
given the model is the same, can you still take it as an Index Herald of Khorne?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:20
well its technically a unit from the index missing in the codex
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:20
Can it take the Index weapon?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:20
so the index one would still be usable
but its a different unit name so no shared wargear
is how i'd interpret it
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:20
but it's the same model.
which is what the commentary says is important.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:21
a space marine is technically the same model as anything that remotely looks like a space marine
so the fact that the commentary says model is nonsense
it has to work on unit names
if you start going down a literal interpretation of MODEL then it opens up a whole nightmare of a mess
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:21
a tac marine is a different model to an assault marine.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:21
its not
a marine is a marine
they may sell boxes labeled up as one thing but in the end its still just a marine
what if you use 30k marines? or converted models etc? it just doesnt work on a per model bases
the only way the commentary can work is if you are comparing unit names vs unit names in codex vs index
they just worded it wrong in the title.. you know, cos games workshop
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:25
You're right, but that doesn't really help me with Daemons.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:25
anyone who owns or buys a herald khorne now...
owns a model that can be used as a Herald of Khorne (index) or a Bloodmaster (codex)
since the unit in the dex is basically a new unit, it wont share any wargear with the herald anymore
but since its a new unit, that puts the herald in the missing from the codex category
so imo both units would be usable but only with the wargear listed in their own book
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:27
ugh. I love duplication!
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:27
tbh if you just renamed it to the new unit and left the heral out i doubt many people would complain
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:27
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:27
like with the Darmon prince death guard issue
but some cunt (like me) would mention it :)
i really cant type for shit on this macbook keyboard too :(
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 14:30
yeah, lets not go with that interpretation. your "herald of khorne" model is now a "bloodmaster" and his "hellblade" is now a "blade of blood"
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:31
to me, a model is something you use to represent a unit
and as long as that model is "suitable" as a representation then you can use it
suitable to me being a model that someone unfamiliar with the army would find easy enough to recognise as that unit
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:32
@GenWilhelm , so you think I should remove the Index versions?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 14:32
replace them with the codex entries, yeah
i would just do a name and profile swap on the existing entries, so people's old lists are updated when they load them up
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:42
@skonk, Virulent Blessing now lasts all game!
they removed all the "until your next Psychic phase" text that was in the Index.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:44
lol
well
i feel like thats a mistake but maybe it could be on purpose...
+1 to wound is it that one?
hmm, nah that has to be a mistke surely?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 14:46
maybe, its difficult to tell. they usually put "for the rest of the battle" or something if it's intended to last that long, dont they?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:46
yeh
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 14:52
i suppose if the units are cheap enough that they expect most lists to be made up of quite a large number of units then accumulating 5 to 7 units all having +1 to wound (taking into account that 1 on turn 1, 2 on turn 2 etc) perhaps isn't all that OP
still think they just forgot to put it on tho :)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 14:54
every other (similar) power has the restriction.
I'm pretty sure it's a fuckup.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 14:58
Its GW, they don't bother to think through anything they write because they assume the player base can magically read designer minds
since we can't, unit names are all we've got (and if we use actual models it becomes a nightmarish mess there is no end to)
so what we really need to do is find a place to draw a line between unit renames and creating the new entry as a new unit
I'd argue: if rules are otherwise completely identical, rename. If there are substantive rules/ability changes, separate
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:01
in the case of the heralds; i think going as the commentary suggest would mean the old index herald is still in....
but
if the old herald offers no benefits (cost, wargear etc) over the new one then no one would miss it if it was just left out
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:03
why would they be still in? they use the same model as the "new" units dont they?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:03
because its a unit that exists in the index but doesnt exist in the codex
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:04
that's not what the designers commentary says though
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:04
it is if you assume the word "Model" is a mistake
and if you dont assume that then you are doing the mess you just described a few lines above
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:04
And a devastator marine uses the same model as tacticals, no troops for you! ⚡️
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:04
ah sorry it wasn't you who said it :)
as we discussed, the commentary say Model but that HAS to be a mistake in the wording
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:05
correction, we would like it to be a mistake in the wording.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:05
the only way the commentary can be applied is by comparing unit names in the index vs the codex to work out if that unit is missing wargear and so on
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:05
how does devestators and tacticals sharing some models mean i cant run tacticals anymore?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:05
you can run them
but if its Model based right....
well a Space Marine model is used in tacticals, devs, assault marines etc
so if you are now comparing wargear on that model
you'd have to let tactical marines use jump packs
if you dont consider the Unit names, its all fucked
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:06
no i dont, since they still have that option in the codex
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:06
no not always
Death Guard use Space Marine models for plague marines
but have no access to Havocs (who have jump packs)
so by a Model only way of doing it, Plague Marines need to have Jump packs added cos the same space marine models in the index have access to jump packs
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:07
The point I was trying to make is that there are several dozen cases where the same models apply to different units
by going down the 'model' path, we by necessity become arbiters of what is and is not 'the model' for a sepcific entry, which loses some of the impartiality you lot so tenderly beat into me about strict raw here
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:09
and when you factor in custom stuff it makes it worse
in the end, as long as a model is a suitable representation of a unit then that model IS that unit
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:10
but the model path is raw
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:10
I don't disagree on what GW meant, I am saying that if we don't go on unit names it becomes a snarled mess that will possibly become impossible to cleanly implement
take the autarch
there IS no foot autarch model
at all
by raw
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:11
id go further and say the designers commentary is impossible to apply if you go by Model
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:11
yet it has a codex entry
and is called out in the same commentary
the only way you can make the logic work for the example given is unit names, because if the foot autarch has no model, you can't apply the commentary to it, yet they do exactly that
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:16
have GW really never sold an autarch on foot?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:16
all of the sold models aren't codex valid
any more
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:17
so by the DC, you take the wargear options from the index and everything else from the codex
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:17
They never sold a model named that way
you could build one that way, but it would still be an "autarch with swooping hawk wings"
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:18
Dammit, I was hoping GW hadn't defined dice, because Disgustingly Resilient in Daemons Codex only says to roll a dice. I was going to use a D20.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:18
lmao. where do they define it?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:18
p176 of BRB
:(
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:18
this is why GW used unit names as the basic standard for deprecation from 3rd to 7th
and under reasonable sanity assumption is doing the same now, just poorly worded
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:20
GW used UNIT in everything they said relating to this silly Index/Codex debacle right up until they put that new infographic out too so like I said; I 100% believe they just used the wrong word in this last case.
I've emailed the FAQ folk about it anyway
i also sent one about how Obliterators have the DAEMON flipping FACTION keyword....
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:21
ive also asked them the cost of weapons teams, since "no extra cost" apparently isnt clear enough
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:22
that weapon teams thing seems really clear to me, dunno why people are having issues with it
if its the problem im thinking you mean
is it the thing where you replace 2 models with 1 heavy weapon base?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:23
yep
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:23
Yes. You buy two models, they become a weapons team, you don't get a refund.
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:23
yeh you pay for the unit, with its min number of models
then after the fact, 2 models get replaced with 1 heavy weapon base
job done
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:24
except raw that's not how you work out the points cost of an army
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:24
?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:24
You total after all adjustments, not during
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:25
where does it say that?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:25
basic army list creation, brb
otherwise you'd pay for every item you replace
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:25
it's more of GW's left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing problem
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:26
the data sheet states what the unit consists of; so the base cost is for what is listed there. You can then change the options and it modifies the resulting cost. The unit here says you can then replace 2 of the models for a heavy weapons team so that requires you to have first purchased the 2 guys who will get replaced.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:27
^^ this
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:27
if you dont buy the 2 guys... you dont have the guys to replace
and the issue of the number of models technically being 1 less than the min unit size.. well its not cos you bought the full unit and fulfilled the requirements before you exchanged the 2 chaps for the heavy weapon team
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:29
@ilaunchbury back on the names vs models, this is why i suggested renaming anything that is exactly the same (because realistically no one will use the old stuff) and keeping and tagging anything meaningfully different. It means that regardless of commentary interpretation, it leaves that determination to the user, as has been the case with other difficulties
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:29
so when i "buy" a unit of scions do i have to pay for the hot-shot lasgun that then gets replaced by a special weapon?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:29
and saves us the headache of hashing out "what is the model)
and the files continue to support the widest user base we can
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 15:31
@WindstormSCR , when you took down the mobile files, did you add some kind of popup when users loaded it somehow?
or am I confused?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:31
it's the same reason i left the shuriken pistol options in on the autarchs, even though absolute RAW 2/3 of them can never ever take one
no, just the message in the data menu below version number
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:33
with the wargear if you exchange a weapon ud basically be refunded the old weapon cost then pay the new one
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:33
But that's not the book
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:33
why should it not be the same case for models?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:34
I think the point @GenWilhelm is trying to make, is the same as mine
get too strict with RAW interpretation, and it becomes self-defeating
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:35
id say he's going too strict with it tho, not me :)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:35
the conclusion is the same. i'm just pointing out the flawed logic
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:36
you buy the unit, it has the default load out of models and wargear and you cant NOT take the mandatory wargear
if a model has a gun listed as standard loadout you have to buy the gun, now some options will let you change it but you cant just remove it and not take anything
so you could in theory spec up 2 dudes with the cheapest possible wargear and then replace those 2
but you cant just take 2 dudes, give them nothing (ignoring their base loadout as listed in the sheet) and then replace em
the heavy weapon in the heavy weapon team isn't exchanged for anything, its just part of the heavy weapon team
the team replaces 2 dudes, those 2 dudes have wargear that cant be removed so has to be paid for if it has a cost
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 15:38
youre now saying that you still have to pay for the wargear of the two models that are no longer part of the army?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 15:38
you have to pay for the models and anything madetory those models come with
then pick 2, put em in yer bag and stick a heavy weapon base down
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:39
so DPs have to pay for hellforged swords even if they have talons, etc
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 15:40
I think the thing here is if it specifically says “replace”, you don’t pay for the original
If it doesn’t; ex may take, form a team, etc; you do pay for all base
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:42

“DETACHMENT ROSTERS
Each Detachment Roster details all the units it includes. Each unit hasa small entry of its own where you can write down the name and type of unit, its Battlefield Role, the number of models it contains, and the weapons each model in the unit is equipped with. Details of how many models make up each unit and what weapons, options and upgrades each can take can be found on that unit’s datasheet.
The points value of each unit’s models and each individual weapon is then noted down by referencing the points lists in the appendix (pg 112-128), and added together to give a points cost for the unit. The points cost of the entire Detachment is simply then the sum of the points costs of its units. This can be noted down alongside other useful information, such as the number of Command Points (if any) the Detachment gives you (see the Warhammer 40,000rulebook for more on Command Points”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Index: Xenos 1.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2017-06-17. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Strict raw since the codexes don't include this rules block everything uses index points forever :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 15:57
Point is, we can snarl ourselves to uselessness with this shit, or use a reasonable interpretation that is useful to the widest audience
in the case of IG, RAI/How Most Play is the HWT costs the same as two guardsmen
and Autarchs can take shuriken pistols under the same basic common sense
going by unit names for the commentary is the same deal, the most reasonable interpretation where the logic holds up
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:04
That is also how ITC and every single TO I know "interprets" it (and I'm using the word "interpret" in an attempt to be mindful)
(since I don't think there's any "interpretation" involved)
Would I like for my Infantry Squads to suddenly all get 4 points cheaper?
Why yes, yes I would.
I would also like about 45 minutes of sloppy head every morning right when I wake up
Sadly, I'm going to be disappointed by both of those desires, because neither of them is reality.
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe shrugs
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:12
@CrusherJoe, lowering the tone since 19XX :)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:12
1970, thanks. :)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:12
I didn't want to presume :)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:12
I work in hyperbole like other men work in oils, acrylics, or stone. It's my true medium. :)
Well, hyperbole and profanity LOL
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:14
I prefer to work in sarcasm. I feel it better represent my underlying cynicism.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:14
Oh sarcasm and cynicism are in my wheelhouse
I just usually run my sarcasm through the hyperbole filter before delivering it
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:14
Well, I've had a productive day at work updating BS files. I'm going home.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:15
lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:15
Lol
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:15
Thanks to @skonk, I'll probably have Daemons ready to go before it's released. So I reckon we do a release at 00:01 on Sat morning :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:16
The good news is i think only one of the heralds is meaningfully different (slaanesh one)
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:16
Khorne has a better weapon and different abilities.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:16
and that wasn't namechanged
ah
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:16
oh, you mean ones that weren't name changed.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:17
sounds like you've got it well in hand
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:17
......
Wait wait wait
hoooooooold on
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:17
?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:18
Please for the love of all that is either holy or unholy tell me we aren't going to be including crap from the Index that has been renamed because some snowflake cheesemonger assnugget might get his feelings hurt? Please? Can we at least have that level of integrity and sanity?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:19
….
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 16:19
thats what people were arguing earlier, yeah
because they dont want to take the designers' commentary literally
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:19
Only if there are significant differences (and all the old heralds are worse) because that is consistent with whats been done prior
and that leaves the arbitration of things out of our hands and in group/TO hands where it belongs
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:20
burn-people.jpg
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:21
Otherwise you've got some 'fun' times ahead with Space wolves
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:21
Oh, no, not really
...actually, yes, really
Ugh
Sorry y'all the sinus headache is evidently affecting my ability to either think straight or articulate
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 16:23
whats wrong with the furbags?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:23
Nothing is wrong with them
....yet
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:23
deprecation is going to make them fuuuuuuun
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:24
#2195 god damnit people
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:24
Just wait until the Codex drops and they delete half the bullshit that every neckbeard Viking werewolf wanna be mothereffer has in his closet (in his bedroom...in the basement...of his parent's house) and wants to use.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:24
A better statement for unit names:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:25
And I'm a Wolf player
I love muh Wolves
But sometimes ya just have to learn to
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:26
removing the old option removes the option to use one interpretation, while just adding the new stuff leaves both open to use and leaves TOs and groups the option to slam the door
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:26
LET IT GO, LET IT GO, YOUR OLD SHIT AIN'T IN THE BOOK, SO IT'S TIME TO LET IT GOOOOOOOOO
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:26
fuck off, i hate yriels model
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 16:27
unfortunately ive seen far too many people accept "battlescribe says its legal" as a good reason, without checking for themself
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:28
unfortunately we can't fix stupid
and designing for stupid is a waste of our time
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 16:28
but we dont have to facilitate it either
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:29
Every.
Single.
TO that I know -- and I know most of the major event ones
Understands that BS is a tool that is done aftermarket and isn't "official" in any way.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:30
that’s TOs though
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:30
We all do manual list checking prior to events (to greater or lesser extents based on size of event)
Yeah
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:30
we’re talking about commonfolk
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:30
And this is going to sting
But what TOs think matters more than schmoes playing a casual game
Simply because there is more at stake in a tournament than in a casual game
People don't travel hundreds, even thousands of miles to play in a casual game
A casual game doesn't have prize support
A casual game doesn't involve (sometimes sizable) expenses in getting there to play it
It's the whole reason the ITC exists, so there's some sanity and at least a modicum of consistency between events
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:33
rather than get into "who matters more" i simply favor the implementation that casts the wider net and leaves the problem to individual events,clubs,groups. Because they WILL vary.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:33
I favor the implementation that favors a cleaner, more streamlined game
And if Ol' Timmy The Neckbeard can't play with his 24 year old metal model of some damned thing that was released before the majority of people playing today were even born, so be it
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:35
Thankfully thats a ruleset/GW issue and not a BS issue.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:35
^tjis
This*
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:35
Agreed
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:36
However, @CrusherJoe wants us to treat it like it is our issue – even though I keep reminding him it’s not ;)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:36
But in implementing it, we have to accept some culpability in being part of the problem
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 16:36
Nope
None
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:36
the tool we make is used by many different groups, not just tournaments. Being inclusive to different readings when they are not mutually exclusive or unclear should be the goal
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:37
I understand.
And I realize mine is just a voice in the wilderness
And I hope you all know that I'll implement whatever the guidelines say to implement
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:38
if people are too fucking dumb to own and read thier books/FAQs thats not on us, and never should be
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:38
Oh I agree 100%
In a perfect world we would implement in a way that doesn't enable their fucking stupidity, though. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:40
if all ITC events had a standard restrictions listing that DIDN't vary by event, i could even be persuaded to add a gametype selection to implement that restriction, if it didn't hurt anything else, because it would be useful to a large enough set of dudes
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 16:40
They don't...yet
But the 2018 FAQ hasn't been released yet -- and even the ITC guidelines for 8th have been "don't make changes to the rules", which was a real problem with 7th edition ITC IMHO
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:41
that being said, daily reminder that deprecation was a mistake, and if GW had been inclusive of old stuff we wouldn't even be having this conversation
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 16:42

deprecation was a mistake

oh hey, i used this earlier

youre clearly a bad influence on me
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 16:43
Just the truth!
i'm a conversion fanatic and narrative player at heart, so the old stuff to me is a fairly heavy loss, as is the slow loss of options 'not in the kit' just because of lawyers
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 16:45
Just had to sit through and hour of FGM training :(
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Jan 10 2018 16:50
How to do it?
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 16:51
I'm a teacher so I'm legally obligated to report it (in the UK this is) if I hear that or suspect that it has happened to someone
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 17:23
FGM?
Fantasy Game Mastering?
You have to report someone for running at D&D campaign?
(no really I have no idea what FGM could stand for in that context)
.....
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe just Googled it
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 17:25
oh
man
okay yeah that's no joking matter. ugh. sorry I said like anything at all
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe crawls back into his hole to rock back and forth quietly reminding himself that the real world can sometimes be far worse than any fantasy game milieu
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:46
yeah... humans do far worse things to eachother than anyone dares to touch in most game settings
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 17:47
Yeah I keep forgetting that it’s actually a major problem in the UK right now
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 17:51
lol
the lol was at @CrusherJoe 's reaction to googling it btw
but yeh its all a bit unpleasant
but back home now so on to building my first great unclean one
and working out if i can magnetise the options
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:53
back to 40k.... now that we've seen the whole thing. do I go mono-tzeentch and rely on chosen/screamers/DP/LoC for melee punch? or should I add some khorne in there using a patrol
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 17:54
mixing some CSM in not an option?
tzeentch and some thousand sons
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:54
CSM are in there, I use <choose legion here> because I'm switching over my RG to traitors
just not 1ks
because they can't use chosen/havocs/CSM
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 17:55
ah
yeh true
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:55
I may eventually get some 1ks in there, but that'll be after the dex drops
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 17:55
with the bonuses to own with daemon id be tempted to throw oblits in the mix
owt^
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:55
maybe eventually, right now I'm trying to keep to stuff that's usable in 30k/40k, and AoS if possible
disciples of tzeentch can ally with blades of khorne in AoS so it's no issue there, my real problem is command points since I lack a nice horde of cultists
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 17:57
@skonk no I understood that
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:57
I could use blues/brims and just go minimum battalion for it, but part of me is wondering if I shouldn't just grab a bunch of bloodletters, they're cheap and effective
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 17:58
Just wish I hadn’t eaten the leftovers of last night’s soup before I read the Wikipedia
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 17:58
more expensive than blues/brims but might achieve more useful stuff
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 17:58
There’s not much out there that legitimately turns my stomach - that did the trick
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 18:04
on a lighter note; this GUO kit is very nice
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jan 10 2018 18:10
Awesome
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 19:46
On an even lighter note
The best thing I can say about the new Slaanesh stuff is
....I guess it's cheap?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 19:52
I wish I could get some decent close-combat Mk III arms that didn't cost 23gbp per 5 :(
I might have to get the plastic WE kit and just de-crazy them a little bit with spare parts
James
@skonk
Jan 10 2018 20:22
oh.. my god
this GUO actually has the parts to build all the weapon options without any shared components and is modelled in such a way as to make it really easy to magnetise
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:01
So
Got a game with a good friend this evening that's practicing for LVO
He's playing Eldar Queso
Mostly Yynnarrrrii flavor
So I thought I'd bring one extra little thing for his pleasure
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:07
Elfslayer.jpg
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 21:07
Rip his farseer
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:07
I present Agent Elfslayer of the Vindicare Temple
Not bad for an hour's worth of work
anyway
Yes sir
"Oh, is that a Farseer over there by your Dark Rapers?" KER-BLAMMO "Get her offa muh table."
Damn near useless against every other faction, the Vindicare is the scourge of the Eldar character
"Don't run Yrvaine, you'll just die tired."
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:11
are you sure that isnt Agent Fett? ;)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:11
nah
Agent Fett has a cooler helmet :)
Of course, this is how it all works in my head
Reality will probably be something far less entertaining
He's got two units of Rapers so I expect to be eating it pretty hard
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:16
reapers counter the only defence the vindi has, too :P
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:17
No, actually, they don't
Yes, they always hits on 3
But he does subtract 2 from their hit rolls if he's in cover
So they hit him on 5s
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:18
except they always hit on 3s ;)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:18
Yes, a result of 3
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:18
it's regardless of modifiers
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:19
....
Well gawddamnit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 21:19

“Inescapable Accuracy:Modelsin this unit always hit on a 3+ when firing a ranged weapon in the Shooting phase, regardless of any modifier”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex: Craftworlds.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2017-10-06T14:47:08Z. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:20
You're 100% correct, and I was not LOL
Well there's the other defense he has that Rapers don't
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:20
otherwise whats the point of the ability? ^^
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 21:20
This is why i was saying points is not why DR are strong
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:20
72" Range
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jan 10 2018 21:20
yeah, reapers are 48"
find a nice tall spot Waaaaay in the back
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:21
It's gonna be a hardcore game
He's a great, great player. He won both Warzone Houston and Wargames Con last year
I scored higher than he did at Iron halo
So there's some friendly rivalry between us
I promised him I'd bring the filth
Normally I don't tailor lists but this is a special moment :)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:24
so how many cullexus are we talking?
wait nvm, they got nerfed pretty hard by CA
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:34
Zero
I never thought that list was even sort of good
Or fun
Or should have ever been allowed
It's trash and a crutch and if you can't win games without resorting to that kind of crap you're playing the wrong game
But bringing a Vindicare for some Excitus...er...exciting close encounters? Nothing wrong with that
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:36
i feel honoured that i could get such a strong reaction :D
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:36
:)
Dude
I love this game
And I hate people ruining it because they have a tiny penis or have an IQ in the double digits or whatever
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Jan 10 2018 21:38
lmao. luckily the next tournament around here is mono-faction
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 21:52
It's not even that
I feel like if what you're putting on the table isn't recognizable as some sort of cohesive fighting force withing the confines of the in-game universe then you probably shouldn't be allowed to play it
The character spam list is the perfect example of just what shouldn't be allowed
Celestine leading a guard army? 100% fluffy -- my Guard is Cadians, painted to match my Sisters -- they're the Celestine Crusade after the Fall of Cadia
(I feel like I'm cheating my friend by not bringing Celestine)
But Greyfax is in the list -- so at least there's one element from FoC :)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Jan 10 2018 22:03
Aaaaanyway
Time to go kick some ass...or get some ass kicked LOL