These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

13th
Feb 2018
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 01:15
my favorite bit of that model is being able to leave the cape off for paint
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 01:55
Yeh.... Wish id done that :(
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe mumbles something about "waiting for his proper paint to come in"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 06:24
@skonk that Shield Captain looks boss!
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 06:28
I'm assembling the rest of my wardens right now
debating leaving the heads off until after paint
because of that backpeice
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:16
When someone posts an issue without making an account (BSDataAnon) does it at least ask them for an email address?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 10:21
@skonk, just closes those two. No need to assign them to me if they don't need any work.
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:22
that one needs work
the description in scribe says it knows all spell from teetch
tzeentch^
should say it knows Three powers
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 10:23
oh, I see. I think I looked at it before you put that bit on, or maybe I just didn't read that part!
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:23
yeh i initially thought he thought the book said it knows all :) but had second thoughts about it so double checked the scribe description
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 10:27
you can close the other one though :)
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:28
I was wondering if people who post as Anon get notifications (as in does it ask for an email address when they post) ?
I feel a bit paranoid that if not, they never see the replies cos they don't know to click the Closed filter to show the closed issues.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 10:31
Just tested it; it doesn't ask.
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:31
:(
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 10:32
It gives them a link to the issue when they raise it.
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 10:32
ah
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 14:38
it's great that they link you to the FAQ page to get the Custodes FAQ, but it's not actually there!
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 14:39
it is for me
Updated 09/02/2018
implies its been there since friday
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 14:41
well, that's weird. It's there now...
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 14:41
probably seeing a cached page before /shrug
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 14:42
Hopefully we'll get TS this weekend.
Just from a quick glance at those Custodes datasheets, they're already wrong. The Contemptor-Achillus has a weapon profile for a Heavy Flamer but no way to get one?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 14:50
that was the first thing i spotted too :P
and yeah, GW have been pretty good so far about getting an FAQ out in the second week
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Feb 13 2018 15:46
"Not intended for use in competitive settings"
5$ we'll see "Competative lists" pop up with them
Q: Can Captain-General Trajann Valoris use his Moment
Shackle ability to regain Command Points when a Stratagem is
used during deployment?
A: Yes, provided Captain-General Trajann Valoris is on
the battlefield when you use the Stratagem.
That's ... interesting.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Feb 13 2018 16:17
Nah, same as the Autarch, deploy them first, then go wild with the other stratagems, I. E. Clouds trike...
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Feb 13 2018 16:41
are we gonna include beta rules, or are we waiting till they bring out the full versions?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 16:43
that's an excelent question, and not one we've had to deal with up until now
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 16:49
i think if we did include them, we'd have to add some warning of some kind to say "hey, these are beta rules. make sure the other players are cool with that"
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Feb 13 2018 16:51
that brings back memories of the old [FW] tag, which we wanted to stear clear off, my other question then would be what if they made beta updates to an already released model?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Feb 13 2018 16:56
yeah, it would probably have to be tagged (which im not a fan of), or have some selector to enable beta rules
and beta updates to an existing unit is an even stickier problem
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 16:59
I say no beta rules.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 16:59
:+1:
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Feb 13 2018 17:00
:thumbsup:
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 18:05

@/all Okay, brainstorm time! If some application could check for data errors/inconsistencies etc., what would you like checked?

In other words, give me examples of situations:

  • something slipped Data Editor,
  • sth that just shouldn't happen
  • data losing its integrity
  • and any other issues you have with datafiles as they are.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 13 2018 18:07
Deletion of a category and field and post deletion cleanup.
(From an AoS perspective: Data has a bad category type and mass cleanup/migration to updated category or categories ... )
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 18:10
I say no to beta rules, too. Not that I don't like them but there's no point in including something until it's officially released -- and beta rules are not. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 18:12
I'm going to include and tag them, the custodes file is tiny and the number of people that will want to use them is sizable.
what we could do is put in a GST switch under gametype
Seriously, the number of 30k talons players that have been waiting on these is not small, and we're going to get a bunch of reports asking for add, so might as well add/tag
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 18:15
Please don't tag at least. Requiring some kind of Beta Rules entry in game setup is at least sensible and can then be updated to not have the requirement.

Deletion of a category and field and post deletion cleanup.
(in other chat) spellchecking

Spellchecking is actually closer to what I had in mind. Cleanup involves editing affected files, so that's a "fixer" thing. Currently I'm working on "analyzer" thing which will perform static analysis and just output warnings/errors found.

Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 18:20
Hey @alphalas look at #2479
Give me your opinion on that one
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 18:23
@/all Is anyone currently working in the GST, or has unmerged GST work?
if not I'll build the GST switch for beta stuff this afternoon
Also at a glance, the FW stuff aside from the achillus wont see too much attempted comp use. The coronus is about the same cost as the landraider
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 13 2018 18:29
@amis92 Analysis of the use of a particular category or profile would allow for manual correction. (A “where is this used” functionality)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 18:29
Yeah, definitely. That's a big one.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Feb 13 2018 18:30
@amis92 to include min/max tags and out big killer is the use of Shared checkboxes
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:43
Shared and Collective seem to cause the most "mystifying" issues/weirdness
And what happened that everyone is so against tagging? Did a tag touch someone inappropriately when they were a child or something? ("Show us on the doll where the bad tag touched you...")
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 19:49
Well, if someone can identify exact requirements to say "that shared/collective checkbox is wrong here" I'll bless him
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:50
I could be wrong (and I probably am) but it feels like the Shared checkbox, in conjunction with the Children attachment to it is...inconsistent.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 19:51
Well, for starters tags look awkward because square brackets are used to mark a lot of things like PL and points.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 19:51
that's why I've been using regular parens
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:51
I would say use another delimiter
Astericks
Dashes
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 19:51
but I've put the "beta rules switch" in the GST
so this custodes set will use that
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:52
-->BETA TEST UNIT, SO PROBABLY SOME BULLSHIT<--
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 19:52
actually all this stuff is mostly garbo
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:52
Yeah I noticed that
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 19:52
its decent as a unit, but everything is monstrously overpriced
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 19:52
"Not intended for use in competitive play"
"Don't worry, nothing in there is even remotely competitive."
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 19:53
I'm going to use them for flavor personally, because I love the look and idea of the achillus/caladius
the coronus.... I think I might actually get a landraider :P
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 19:54
I think "no tags" was "hyperboled" from stop-using-FW-tags as they were supposed to be normal 40k units.
But personally I dislike tags in general. They're not exactly standardised, everyone does whatever fits, formatting differs, reasons differ, it's just bad for maintenance.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Feb 13 2018 20:00
So, pick a standard and we'll all use it.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 20:00
This. ^^^^^
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 20:03
Why do you like/want tags?
Give me some supporting arguments.
What do they achieve aside of cluttering (already cluttered) interface and display view?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 20:20
I like tags for the simple reason that they jump out even in minimal-format lists as they are part of the selection name
so even in minimized tournament format outputs its easy to see if an option is coming from an unusual source
as you say, FW is standard part of the game and shouldn't be tagged, but I think index and beta should be
and ONLY index/beta
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 20:22

We need always to look at the final experience. Why did people love that newish webapp-thing that simply prettyfied BattleScribe rosters? It was nice, clear, containing only what was actually important.

Of course, we always try to support the advanced scenarios and power users when going to "full-blown" view with all the rules, profiles, categories etc etc. That's okay, unless it comes in the way of simplicity and hot-path optimization.

Tags, when applied as prefixes, can help sort units. They can provide a hint of something "special". They definitely cannot contain any helpful information such as a Rule description. For people not accustomed to a particular tag, they introduce disorientation and doubt.

When applied as postfixes, they provide just the hint, but also defer importance of that hint to "if you read long enough, you'll notice"

It seems that in this case, introducing the tag would mainly aim at preventing people from "cheating" their opponents that a unit has official rules. To me that's a very misguided concept. If an opponent wants to "cheat", he will. These being beta rules, unofficial, they don't really belong to this repo. If @WindstormSCR you insist, please include them. It will definitely set a precedent, and in future we'll be more obliged to follow this reaction as the expectations will widen.

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 20:22
since those are the most likely to cause confusion
@amis92 personally, I think we should support the beta rules, as they're still a part of the game, and even if not intended for competitive play, they ARE intended for matched.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 20:23
I believe that until we have an actual validation system, no-one should take BattleScribe rosters as "secure", because everyone can modify anything.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 20:23
the people with a stake in it don't
my aim isn't to prevent cheats, just minimize confusion
that's what it should be about to me, supporting the widest set of players we can, open/narrative/matched, and minimize confusion in list building where we can (the point of BS at its heart really) especially with the craziness that is 8th ed listbuilding
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 20:25
Minimizing confusion is a good point, although one we're constantly failing to achieve.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 20:26
I think that's more down to 8th than to us, the nested detachments being the major exception
8th listbuilding is..... messy
to that end, I think the GST switch is the best of the options available to us, because like the narrative WL traits, it hides all of it unless the user opts to see it
which leaves the "default mode" of listbuilding standard matched play
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 20:30
I really don't like the way the tags seem to scream at me, but that's also the reason for their existence which I agree may help reduce confusion.
I've thought for a brief second about using Categories, but they stack in the top entry.
if that no force org switch isn't selected, they don't even show up
If someone could merge #2484 that would be great
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 20:51
I think that looks pretty neat
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:05
yeah, allcaps screaming bold isn't very pleasant, but a regular-case tag serves as a useful reminder
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 21:08
I think that's pretty much perfect.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:13
:D
now I just need to save pennies for an achillus to magnetize the crud out of to make the exemplar or achillus
or use it as a base ven contempt
hrm
the plasma flamer option on the exemplar is odd
I can see it being a decent take, since custodes dreads can deepstrike
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:19
just not sure if they're +50pts good
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 21:23
:)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Feb 13 2018 21:24
Pretty sure the plasma flamer is the adrathic option; which if it is, kinda doesn’t bode well
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:31
it is
I mean
I'd totally go for adrathic spears on regular CG if that's what they're doing with it
since they want to be in enemy face anyway
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:49
@alphalas I blame you:
gonna convert some heavy weapons teams and wyvern crew with the hostile environment stuff
tekton
@tekton
Feb 13 2018 21:56
No sword-and-board-nought? You know you wanna
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:56
no rules yet, and budget said no
tekton
@tekton
Feb 13 2018 21:56
silly budget
Yeah I"m waiting on rules before I end up buying three...
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 21:58

@amis92 hoping that the importance of this issue is self-explanatory

@/all Okay, brainstorm time! If some application could check for data errors/inconsistencies etc., what would you like checked?

In other words, give me examples of situations:

  • something slipped Data Editor,
  • sth that just shouldn't happen
  • data losing its integrity
  • and any other issues you have with datafiles as they are.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 21:59
most of the above is the result of multiple people working on the same cat and being merged, which your new system seeks to remedy at the core
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 21:59
One example to start off is, check if after the file is modified (in git history), revision was incremented
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 22:00
helpful but shouldn't be required, since major revision changes for small things seems less useful
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 22:01
oh, that'd only check since last release.
so increment once per release
further down the line I hope to completely automate revision setting to do it during publishing
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 22:02
Yeah it would be nice to have .0 increments in data editor
Hey @alphalas what say you on #2479 ?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 22:31
Look at that!
image.png
tekton
@tekton
Feb 13 2018 22:55
Is ver'y nice
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 22:56
Wow that's sweet.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 23:37
missed the plasma ejector profile
so PR #2485 up
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 23:53
So, currently that's what it looks like, if anyone is interested: (the split into JSON - example catalogue Eldar Craftworlds)
image.png
James
@skonk
Feb 13 2018 23:54
I did have a look at the source but the stuff you're doing in there is well above my skill level :)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 23:54
That's after unzipping
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Feb 13 2018 23:54
Sweet Geebuz that's a lot of files LOL
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 23:55
@CrusherJoe imagine comitting on master with no danger :D
that's why so many files
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 23:56
Yeah. So, that's still up in the air how granular the split should be. My tool just made the assumption every single entity like a condition or modifier, rule, characteristic even, should have it's own file.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Feb 13 2018 23:56
I'd say probably just do it by SSE, Profile, Root
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Feb 13 2018 23:57
We may decide modifiers belong to the entry file, etc. Or that lists of categories or links may be just in single file
That's plausible too. We just need to find the right balance, I think.