These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

10th
Mar 2018
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:00 UTC
yeah, this is what i meant by RAW vs RAI
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:00 UTC
You do this, and you're going to give idiots the idea that that's what they should do.
I can only imagine the bullshit TOs are going to go through with this codex
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:01 UTC
lets just hope its cleared up in the faq nervously sips scotch
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:01 UTC
Hope is the first step to disappointment.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:02 UTC
oof
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:02 UTC
What's hard for me to comprehend is how this is an agrument
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:02 UTC
because That Guy plays tau
and he isnt happy with how the codex looks so far
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:03 UTC
It's cheesesuckers wanting to keep their cheese, when CLEARLY that's not what was intended.
And us being part of that, propagating it, condoning it, allowing it...
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe just shakes his head.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:04 UTC
well we arent the authority on what is legal. we just try our best to determine what is RAW
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:05 UTC
@CrusherJoe we can stomp and cry and shake our fists all we like, but ultimately the point of this is to follow the current Ruleset as closely as possible, and where there is ambiguity, provide support to as many interpretations as possible until the rules become clear. (assuming they aren't mutually exclusive)
the support systems stim injector should get an (Index) tag like everything else that #1414 covers
@CrusherJoe now this level of special, I can get legitimately angry about
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 00:13 UTC
People are special
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:16 UTC
i think people just expect to have it all done for them
the hear that FW custodes got added to bscribe, so they load it up to have a look and their FW models arent there, so they go ask when it'll be updated
anyway, to lighten the mood, since i know theres some necron players in here
https://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/the-first-necron-leaks-dynastic-codes.html
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:25 UTC
I was building some press-fit guard yesterday
pack of 5 easy build dudes
has a data sheet in it for a 5 man unit of Infantry
I guess this is actually legit to use
image.png
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:32 UTC
Those seem pretty baller
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:32 UTC
would knock like 60 points off a battalion i think
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 00:33 UTC
There's no points value for it though
Only PL
(does that matter?)
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:34 UTC
points for the models are in the codex
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:34 UTC
surely that means the codex datasheet overwrites it?
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:34 UTC
they did the same thing with all of the smaller model packs, like thje easy build primaris stuff and the limited edition plague marines and such
no cos the data sheets in the packs are exactly so you can run the models in the pack as is
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:35 UTC
also, mentioning PL, why the hell is that unit 3 power?
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:35 UTC
feck knows lol
the death guard box with that lord felthius guy in it; one of the blightlord terminators in that box comes modelled in a way that can't even be done in the codex
so only way to use him is to use the 3 man data sheet in the box
The note at the top of that data sheet even explains that these rules get you going on the battlefield and if you want the full rules hit the index or codex
i would think in an actual guard army you would want to use the 10 man units to make better use of orders and get access to vox casters and special weapons n shit
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:40 UTC
but for someone wanting to shoehorn a little guard detachment in for CP generating I dont see why these wouldn't be legit to use
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:44 UTC
idk. it just doesnt sit right with me that there are two different datasheets with the same name that are both legal
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:44 UTC
my take is that the top rules bar above the datasheet overrides
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:44 UTC
Why would they put them in the box if we couldnt use them
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:45 UTC
its GW
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:45 UTC
why would the data sheet it's self talk about using said data sheet and/or the codex, making it clear both are fine
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:45 UTC
fuck knows anymore
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:45 UTC
im talking about matched play. open and narrative, do whatever you want
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:45 UTC
restrictions for matched play are stated along side the thing they want to restrict tho
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:47 UTC
Those dynastic codes look pretty fun
making me tentative hype for an immortals-heavy cron army
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:48 UTC
yeh they look ok
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:49 UTC
tesla with AP-1, aka. how to delete just about anything
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 00:49 UTC
i was hoping the tau dex would get me hyped to play my Tau again but it hasn't; maybe the cron book will get me wanting to play my crons again tho
I dont know why but i've been really taken with my Custodes; I think it's something along the lines of feeling relaxing to play because the lack of variation in their rules make em easy to play lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 00:51 UTC
@GenWilhelm well, assuming you aren't shooting at something that "turns off" tesla
like units with stealth doctrines or effects
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Mar 10 2018 00:51 UTC
at half range, there isnt much of that to go around
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:06 UTC
Okay, honestly? Stop this madness. It's pretty clear that Stimulant Injector has new rules in the codex. Therefore, it is a wargear option from Index that has new rules in Codex [irrespective if it still even counts as wargear]. Therefore, the Designer's commentary says "use Codex" PERIOD.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 01:12 UTC
There's no precedent for it, so you could safely wait to an FAQ
and/or an update to the designer commentary
I had a similar issue with custodes about special rules with the same name on different units (the vexilla) and GW went with "if it has the same name use the new one" so you have some ground for that position
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 01:16 UTC
I wish I could "like" a comment in here LOL
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe applauds @amis92
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:16 UTC

Sure I do. And I sure won't leave that as an option 'till FAQ allows it specifically. It's beyond crazy to leave it and it'll hurt more if I leave it just to wait for FAQ to remove it.

Also, I'm still open for discussion. :)

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 01:17 UTC
which tickled me because it means you CAN take the vexilla on the custodian guard, it just does nothing
at all
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:17 UTC
Fortunately even if FAQ says to allow it, the timespan will be what, not even two weeks?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 01:17 UTC
in fact, here given the precedents taken all together. I'd say you can take the stimulant injector, and are then obligated to pay 1CP per turn per suit that equips it
lol
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:18 UTC
Yeah, index-codex problem is a problem created in good faith on GW's part
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 01:18 UTC
Just remember this one quote: "Mah cheese, Ah've gots ta have mah cheese"
Know that's what we're dealing with and head that crap off at the pass
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:20 UTC
Well, if you can bear it, I'm ready to close these issues without even blinking ;)
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:41 UTC
@amis92 as much as I want to agree with you and joe
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 01:42 UTC
Don't start man
Please
Please
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:42 UTC
Played Diablo 3 too much today; feels like my eyes are going to bleed
got 7th of the leader board tho
for EU
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:43 UTC
RAW from designer’s commentary is pretty clear
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:44 UTC
Give it to me. How's my reasoning flawed?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:44 UTC
UNFORTUNATELY; the precedent was set by the commissar
Power axe was removed from a list
HOWEVER GW did confirm that it is still an option
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:47 UTC
Not true for my case. The Stim Injector might've been removed, but it also has new rules which is very important here.
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:48 UTC
This is the issue for me with this, while it may have a new rule, there is now no WARGEAR item in the Codex called Stim Injector....
and since it IS wargear in the index, it makes it fall into the wargear removed in the codex blah blah thing
but for me this Tau case is the going to be the straw that breaks the camels back so to speak and forces GW to address the issue
cos this has to be the clearest example of GW not intended this
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:49 UTC
So while there is now a identically named stratagem; there is ALSO a piece of wargear named it
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:51 UTC
Can't agree really. There was a piece of wargear, which now has new rules. In these new rules, it's no longer a wargear.
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:51 UTC
Which is clearly the intention
But as written its not
If this isn't addressed in the 2 week FAQ i'll eat my fecking hat tho cos they can't leave it
the change from support systems to strats wont go under the radar and people wont like this change and if they can abuse the shitty wording on the designers commentary they will i reckon
a lot of this bullshit goes under the radar cos it's not in the wider consciousness
i dont think this one will tho
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 01:53 UTC
It sounded like they (GW) thought moving it to stratagems was a buff since it’s more flexible
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:53 UTC
well as a support system you can buy it for any number of units
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 01:53 UTC
sounded? Where? When?
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:53 UTC
as a strat you can use it once per phase
on 1 unit
its a nerf, no way around that
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 01:54 UTC
The warhammer tv stream this morning
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:54 UTC
And the designer’s commentary SPECIFICALLY says wargear is always useable
Wow that took me forever to type that lol
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:55 UTC
I've sent god knows how many emails now to the FAQ address pointing out various nonsense and shenanigans that can happen due to the designers commentary wording; hopefully they got red
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:56 UTC
@amis92 let me ask you this
Isn’t our standard MO to support all options until proven wrong by faq?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 01:58 UTC
In case of vagueness I mean
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 01:58 UTC
sorry about that filling the fecking screen up
winters codex reviews havn't been as good since he got told off for showing too much of the book :(
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 02:06 UTC
and yet SS82 does the same thing
and gets away with it
and he's a billion times more fucking annoying
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 02:07 UTC
Heh
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 02:16 UTC

Isn’t our standard MO to support all options until proven wrong by faq?

@alphalas It is. However I actually can't find it written, can you? We should probably write that down. Possibly as a rule number 0?

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 02:29 UTC
I'd say leave it in with an index tag until the FAQ
then see what happens
no sense having to rip it out just to put it back in again later
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 02:33 UTC
I'll rip it out and never put back, just like I'll have to with my heart after such a nerfy update ;D
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 02:38 UTC
i'm still looking forward to quad fusion coldstar, with possibly using fusion blades...with some of the guys i play with it's going to drive them crazy
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 02:39 UTC
@amis92 yeah probably.
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 02:45 UTC
i wish vespids were cheaper, points and money wise...
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe hums a tuneless tune as he quietly prepares to embark on that Coast-to-Coast Murder Tour he's been planning for ages.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:04 UTC
Okay, can anyone tell me where do we have our most important rule? Inclusiveness? 😅
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:05 UTC
I thought I was going to start with advertising executives then work my way over to reality TV "stars", pop in on the FOX network jackhole that cancelled "Firefly", you know, relevant stuff. But now it looks like I'm going to have to visit Every. Tau. Player. that thinks they can still suck the cheese cock and hide behind the Emperor-damned-to-all-the-Hells Index Designer's Commentary for things that GW so painfully obviously intended to be nerfed.
@amis92 you know, now that you mention it I've heard that rule spouted by @alphalas oh so many times I sheepishly assumed it was written down somewhere.
Can we please, for love of sanity -- and if for nothing else -- love and respect of the game -- no enable people to create invalid, illegal lists? Please? All I'm asking for is sanity and reason here.
amis92 @amis92 admires the poetry
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:08 UTC
It is, after all, an open-source project. If the cheesemongers want, they can use whatever outdated (and invalid) data files they want.
I mean, some people still play 7th edition
And if the whiners raise issues, please point them to the wiki for how to write you own data file
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:10 UTC
Do we have one? ;)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:10 UTC
Hey if we don't, even better! That'll keep them occupied for at least a few minutes.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:11 UTC
And I will reiterate that our feelings on the subject don't actually matter, because otherwise we're no better than reece and the others that helped cause this flaming bag of shit of a tau codex
its fine to have opinions, its less fine for those opinions to become a source of bias when trying to write what has become the 'de facto' listbuilding source for a big chunk of the 40k community
I can argue it both ways all day
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:13 UTC
That hurts most. It's so true I can't even start to comprehend.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:13 UTC
ultimately @amis92 makes the call of what to do
because he's the tau cat keeper
my personal position is to leave it in and let individual groups sort out thier shit
that's what we did with autarchs, and it resulted in less bug reports than expected
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:14 UTC
I’m with @WindstormSCR on this one unfortunately
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:14 UTC
and have it tagged
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:14 UTC
As pants on head backwards as it is, it is a valid option
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 03:14 UTC
it would seem to be "easier" to just leave it in
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:15 UTC
Until GW tells us otherwise; because the designers commentary.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:15 UTC
so that people like @CrusherJoe and other event organizers can put an FAQ line-item and say "for this event this thing is not acceptable"
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:15 UTC

DepreciationWasAMistake

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:15 UTC
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
turning any wargear into stratagems was the retard move
that's my opinion at least, because you're actively going "only one unit per turn gets this benefit"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:17 UTC
...and yet, 99 drones are still a thing
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe coughs
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:17 UTC
@CrusherJoe no now it’s probably 60 drones
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:17 UTC
you can make stupid lists like that with any codex though
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:17 UTC
And yes I know that’s not your point
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:17 UTC
You can't make stupid lists like that that make big derpy battlesuits unkillable in any other codex, though. :)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:18 UTC
at least you can't take 10 commanders now, can you -.-
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:18 UTC
Unless you’re taking 9 patrols, no
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:18 UTC
@CrusherJoe now you just shoot the big thing enough times for savior protocols to fail
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:18 UTC
10 commanders, without 90 drones, with beta character targeting rules, aren't THAT big of a deal
Battlesuits with 90 effective wounds are
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:18 UTC
also from what it looks like, its no longer "savior protocols eats the whole lascannon" its per wound
so just shoot any suit with a Scorpion Type II and either half the drones die or the suit does
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:19 UTC
dammit people I don't want to wander into spouting T'au hate speech again :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:19 UTC
I don't care about the tau hate speech
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe 's weapon of choice for such things is a volcano cannon.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:20 UTC
I just don't want strong opinions to make us biased like 7th ed ITC and other notable examples of 'de facto community leaders' overly influenceing things about the game
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:21 UTC
This isn't about bias -- it really isn't.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:21 UTC
@amis92 we should definitely try and write down that inclusion policy and put it in big fucking bold on the wiki frontpage so we can point people at it.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:21 UTC
Yeah, definitely don't want to become one. I really feel like sometimes I push too much in my direction
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:22 UTC
Can you honestly -- and I do mean blunt-force honesty, truly believe in your heart honestly -- believe for one second that what you're proposing was really what the point of releasing a new T'au codex was for?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:22 UTC
and then add a second line telling them tosort out thier opinions among thier own gaming groups
I don't even know. I think GW means well but has no fucking idea anymore when it comes to intricate sets of rules that work together
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:22 UTC
Otherwise, why release the codex at all?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:23 UTC
so what they percieve as a buff is mechanically a nerf
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:23 UTC
Just change points in Chapter Approved and call it a day
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:23 UTC
because the designers they have don't seem to be able to take things beyond simple logical additions
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:24 UTC
Codex (most recent publication) supersedes previous ones, including Indexes
That wargear has transitioned away from wargear and into a strategem
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:25 UTC
@CrusherJoe if they weren't deprecating options in this entire codex run, that makes actual models obsolete, in ways that makes no sense and are blatantly driven by thier legal department, the argument of "what makes sense" might hold water
this entire debacle rests squarely on the shoulders of GW legal going "No rules for shit we don't sell, or options we don't sell"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:25 UTC
They're a business, they have to make decisions driven by their legal department. Otherwise their IP becomes diluted and unenforceable.
I'm not saying I like that, but it is business reality.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:26 UTC
I direct you to the Eldar Codex that spends two entire pages discussing eldar Autarchs, and how they collect wargear over thier career
and then summarily rip out that flexibility in the rules section
Sense has very little place in these rules arguments anymore, and it saddens me more every day
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:27 UTC
Okay but any time you go making crunch arguments "in accordance with the fluff" you've kinda lost that argument. According to the fluff 10 space marines can drop pod onto a planet and subdue it's PDF. That's not exactly how the crunch works, though.
Fluff is like a recruitment poster.
Reality after enlistment is usually quite different.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:29 UTC
the point i'm trying to guide you to
WE CAN'T KNOW GW's INTENT
I wish we could
it would answer a whole fucking lot of questions easily
but in absence of that, all we have is the DC
there is no precedent for wargear becoming a stratagem. none. zero.
because of that, there are 3 possibilities
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:30 UTC
Okay, let's stop here. Truth is, the writing is definitely not as clear as we want it to, simply because there even is a shade of doubt.
A such, any interpretation is RAI, one way or another.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:31 UTC
1) stim injector index overwritten by codex in its entirety
2) Stim injector can still be purchased by index+DC but rules change
3) stim injector can still be bought
any of these 3 could be the correct one
and we have no fucking clue which
until we do, the proposal that seems to twist your panties so hard is to simply leave it in until we have clarity
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:34 UTC
True that! @WindstormSCR can you add that to #2634 ?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:35 UTC
I don't see the shade of doubt, myself. But that's my opinion, and I recognize it as such. I believe <--there's that word that there is no concept of "intent", the codex itself seems pretty clear. The concept of a "stim injector" is no longer a thing you can grant to a model by paying points for it. It's effect is only achievable through expenditure of Command Points via the Strategem.
Otherwise there is absolutely no point in making that change in the codex.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:36 UTC
I'm with you @CrusherJoe , but to stand by the rules I've imposed at least partially myself, I've got to keep the index way for time being :broken_heart:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:36 UTC
In your list of things above, Occam's Razor determines #1 is the only correct answer
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:36 UTC
@CrusherJoe but as @skonk has proven time and again, GW DOESN’T REALIZE WHAT THEY SAID AND WHAT IT MEANS HALF THE TIME
And that’s the biggest issue right there.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:40 UTC
I would posit that the biggest issue is players unable to let go of their bullshit when new rules come around and swat down their little powerwhore dreams with the nerf bat, and so the scurry around like rats in a burning building desperately clinging to whatever hope they have of keeping their bullshit intact. Conscript spam was a case of this previously, and I for one rejoiced when it got smashed. Now...I think they went too far, but I'm not complaining. I'll give up commissars for no conscript spam all day long.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:41 UTC
@/All I know a while back I saw someone managed to make a pop-up notification happen in BS
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:42 UTC
No that was joe being a smartass and photoshopping
That wasn’t real
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:42 UTC
I propose if its possible we try and make the GST throw one, and put a warning in it that any option with an (Index) tag is a source of possible rules dispute due to multiple instances of vague rulings and wordings
then perhaps its time for a feature request from @Jonskichov
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:42 UTC
It's always time for that ;D
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:43 UTC
Battlescribe -- Guard.jpg
You mean that?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:43 UTC
because being able to say "You chuckleheads sort it out, we're just trying to make it useful to as many of you as possible"
would absolve us of a LOT of problems
and false bugreps, and other bullshit
because I don't like arguing with Joe and Gen and Amis
I have better things to do, like paint
Hell, if I could, this is what the popup would contain: http://puu.sh/zEmOl/53cf07b721.jpg
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:45 UTC

Colin McDade Joe Beddoe my argument to say no to that obvious tomfoolery, using GW’s said flow chart document. Is that since the said wargear (stim injectors) has rules in the codex as a stratagem, it replaces the rules for it in the index. Thus they could pay for the stim injectors but get no rules for it. Also, you would still use the codex points values for said equipment, which doesn’t exist for stim injectors so there is no way for them to legally pay a points cost for it either.

So there’s 2 reasons why it’s no. Just based off the same document they’re trying to use to say yes.

OMG THAT'S AWESOME @WindstormSCR
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe high fives
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:46 UTC
The Boondocks was and still is one of the greatest vehicles for social commentary in modern times.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:47 UTC
so my position always will be that until we can definitively know, just support as many of the opinions that we can that aren't mutually exclusive
and leave those for individual groups/TOs/Organizers to deal with
Hell, I'm tempted to make a "Quick Guide for TOs" in the wiki page with a list of the currently divisive shit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:48 UTC
Also, if it's any consolation to any of you, I just started a firestorm of a debate in the ITC TO forum over this. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:49 UTC
and for the record, I think your tau hate on the players is misplaced
99 drones is a symptom where players are just working with the bricks made of turd that GW gave them
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:49 UTC
Joe, linky :D
@WindstormSCR I agree. A symptom with a misplaced cure.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:50 UTC
it's a closed and secret FB group @amis92 that you have to be invited to, unfortunately
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:50 UTC
no, papa nurgle (GW) just said "Oh hey give me a couple of those bricks back, they were the good ones, here have these other turd-bricks as replacements"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:51 UTC
I'll admit maybe it's just the virulent strain of T'au players we have around here, then. They certainly infested the meta at the tail end of 7th edition, and whored themselves out to every army that would take them as an allied detachment.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:52 UTC
that's the thing
every faction has problem players
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 03:52 UTC
On a completely different note- trying to prime thing black in the middle of the night is entertainingly bad
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:53 UTC
from the sound of things those players would just run off to dark reapers or some equally silly power build if they weren't invested
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:53 UTC
At the top of "the worst" are the Eldar Privileged -- those that play Eldar and refuse to admit there's some bullshit in their book. You can identify them by the way they defend Dark Reapers.
Close to those are the Guard Deniers -- those that claim Guard isn't just a wee bit OP in some cases, and downright broken in others.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:54 UTC
I only defend dark reapers in the sense that when they get updated I don't want to see them become useless
right now they're too strong, but its less points cost and more that they do something no one else can
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:54 UTC
Now we're about to get hit by a wave of T'au Tryhards. I think the name explains what they are sufficiently.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:55 UTC
Guard are, but at the same time without imperial souping they're not top drawer
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 03:55 UTC
For the record, I value very much our opinion sharing and I'm quite proud of what we're able to agree and collaborate on.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:55 UTC
so you have to be careful to hit the problem things without breaking the army
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:55 UTC
@amis92 agreed
amis92 @amis92 waves goodnight
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:55 UTC
Agreed. Reasoned discourse is the heart and soul of a successful enterprise.
G'nite, @amis92
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:56 UTC
and especially have to be careful about hitting the problem stuff without breaking what makes the unit "fun" beyond raw power in casual settings
night @amis92
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:56 UTC
Case in Point: Conscript Spam
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:56 UTC
exactly
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:56 UTC
I really didn't think it would be that big of a deal. Then I played in a tournament with 2 units of 20.
They were retarded.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:57 UTC
they went from being a problem to "I can't even take these in casual for the fantasy they're supposed to support"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:57 UTC
Went Full Retard.jpg
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 03:57 UTC
Yup I remember when you first went bonkers over the self propelled sand bags lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:57 UTC
The other CURRENT example
manticores and basilisks
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:57 UTC
I painted 40 in 4 days along with custom bases
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:58 UTC
and indirect fire weapons in general
are the current major strength guard have over everyone else besides dirt cheap troops
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:58 UTC
Basis are good with the Aerial Spotter strar
strat
Manticores are undeniably good
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:58 UTC
the problem is, how do you handle toning that down without making them objectively useless?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:59 UTC
But I've rolled snake eyes on the number of shots with my manticore...waaaaay more times than I should have
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 03:59 UTC
and worse, making them not even live up to the thing they're supposed to be good at?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 03:59 UTC
The built-in double randomness of both tones them down a good bit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:00 UTC
agreed, but you wouldn't think so with the guard-haters crying from the rooftops
the easiest guard problem to address is 5ppm infantry
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:00 UTC
If they were, say, straight 3 damage instead of d3 (like, say, Dark Reapers) they would be clearly OP
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:00 UTC
conscripts get something of thier purpose back
Dark reapers are an interesting thing
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:01 UTC
I'd like to use my Commissars again. It doesn't feel right to put Guard on the table without them
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:01 UTC
they're a clear example of how static damage is favorable over variable
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:01 UTC
Another example of that: Powerfist or Thunderhammer?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:01 UTC
but would people really stop taking them if the starshots were D: D6 like other AT weapons?
my guess is no
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:02 UTC
Any answer besides, "Duh, Thunderhammers" will result in a loud gong sounding
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:02 UTC
Predator autocannon
which marines often use when able
because static damage is king
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:02 UTC
Agreed, 100%
Unless you're comparing Leman Russ weapons. :)
In that case, quantity has a quality all it's own. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:03 UTC
Dark reapers are an unfortunate artefact of a warped meta because of the damn fool idea to make -1 to hit mods armywide traits
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:03 UTC
PREACH
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:03 UTC
I hope every single trait that reads like that gets Dal'yth 'd in the march update
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:03 UTC
Can I Get an Amen.jpg
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 04:04 UTC
I’m semi ok with -1 at certain ranges, but I’d be more ok with it if 6s always hit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:04 UTC
So I can drink the pool of salty salty tears and enjoy dark reapers no longer being anywhere near as op
the reason they're spammed is because they don't care about the -1 while recieving it themselves
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:05 UTC
Yes, you see. Those are the Eldar Privileged.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:05 UTC
if you actually play against someone who has them and doesn't run alaitoc, they're a fragile unit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:05 UTC
I wouldn't go that far.
In cover they're hard to exterminate.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:06 UTC
I'd agree if I didn't lose 4/5 to basilisk fire every game
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:06 UTC
And if you wanna use melee...well....you have to get there being shot at by them.
And if you wanna deep strike....well, daddy's got some Forewarning for you.
Let's not even get in to Ynarri ones
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:06 UTC
I think at most they need to go up by 4ppm and have the -1 stripped out from every fucking codex
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:07 UTC
My problem with Eldar in general is they really don't have many weaknesses
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:07 UTC
eh
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:07 UTC
What weaknesses they should have? Oh no, they've got some tricksy rule or strategem for that, thank you.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:07 UTC
I'll put it a different way: they have weaknesses, but are designed to cover that weakness with complementary units and strats
and require a good general to not fall apart
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:08 UTC
In many ways Craftworlds is a masterfully designed codex
Assuming you were an Eldar player. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:08 UTC
you see it a lot in casual, where players just starting eldar get Rolled a LOT
and the only real advice us other autarchs can really offer is "Git Gud Son"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:08 UTC
lulz
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:09 UTC
because it is an army that doesn't do you any favors if you fuck up your fire priority AT ALL
or positioning
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:09 UTC
Like Guard. Guard's gigantic gaping weakness is assault.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:09 UTC
because your shit is T3 bodies
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:10 UTC
The reason I run a brigade (other than the obvious CP benefit) is I need all 60 of those sandbags to delay assaults from jacking up my tanks...because once that happens, it's all over son. Slow music and flowers.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:10 UTC
yeah
example for eldar is wraiths
they take decent planning to make them work
when they work, they WORK
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:11 UTC
Yes. Yes they do.
But get them out of position and you've got a lot of wasted points on your hands.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:11 UTC
I'm still trying to make a WK work and not suck
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:12 UTC
My boy Chris has been running 2 WK lately
He's been surprisingly successful.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:12 UTC
my problem is that I want to like the suncannon
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:12 UTC
He beat the 99 drone list with it last weekend.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:12 UTC
but it costs WAAAAAAAY too much
let me guess, wraithbone fists + supreme disdain combo for maximum melee blending?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:13 UTC
No, shining spears, guardians and fire dragons
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:13 UTC
lol
I've been warming up to guardians, slowly
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:14 UTC
He loves them
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:14 UTC
my issue is I do not wish to paint any more than I already have
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:14 UTC
That's how I feel about Scions
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:15 UTC
I might relent
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:15 UTC
But the Shame Table dictates I have many to paint
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:15 UTC
we'll see what march holds
if its bad news for crons and bad news for imperial I might just expand into more guardians and some more wraith units
worst case scenario, is that HH in my area continues to decline
to the point where I begin to consider selling my RG
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:24 UTC
hey @WindstormSCR add me on fb
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:25 UTC
once I remember what my login is
I never use the thing
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:25 UTC
theres a maryland 30k group i can stick you into
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:25 UTC
oh, I know about it
just most of the events are too far a drive
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:25 UTC
where are you again?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:25 UTC
Columbia
the other much less obvious thing
is that the closest place that does do regular 30k
has a terrible case of "no sportsmanship"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:26 UTC
a dios mio . Nope.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:27 UTC
the "Oh you're bringing Raven Guard? Let me go uncase my typhon"
kind
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe narrows his eyes down to slits.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:27 UTC
Yeah, I know the type
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:27 UTC
granted I have an answer for that
but I don't want half my list to be cybernetica every game
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:28 UTC
Ew
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:28 UTC
I make no bones about being a Filthy Juice Pig. But I also play other Filthy Juice Pigs. And if it's someone new or that doesn't want to play at that level, no problem. I have less competitive lists.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:28 UTC
that's the thing
in 40k, I can go up and down that spectrum all day
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:28 UTC
Then again my 3.5k BA list struggles against most LOW
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:29 UTC
30k is where I explicitly stick to the fluff as much as I can
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:29 UTC
....I don't think @alphalas has ever seen any of my less competitive lists, though... lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:29 UTC
which for RG is minimal tanks, lots of bodies
and things like the typhon are just "no fun allowed"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
I :heart: tanks that's my effin' problem
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
@CrusherJoe no probably not lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
@alphalas got any RG players in your area that would pay a premium for fully magnetized RG infantry?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
Uhhhhh
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
But I've also thoroughly corrupted @alphalas
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
I’ll put out some feelers
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 04:30 UTC
Now he posts filth lists with pride, and says "I blame Joe."
I'm so proud. :)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Mar 10 2018 04:31 UTC
I can get you a list if there are any serious takers
but its all primed
and you've seen the quality of my prime jobs
these are better than what you've seen because it was supposed to be the base color coat
2 stormeagles (I might keep one for deathwatch), multiple drop pods, lots of mk 3 and 4
FW shoulderpads on most of the MK IV
I was about to start painting in earnest as 8th hit
and it just sucked the wind right out of my sails
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Mar 10 2018 07:21 UTC
Well that was an interesting catch up...
What I fear is when all the codex are out, and TO'S try to say "codex only" - it will be a tag frenzy in the Cat's since GW said index is always valid
Adam Vollrath
@axisofentropy
Mar 10 2018 07:57 UTC
Y'all seen these Necron rumors?
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Mar 10 2018 10:35 UTC
-1ap under half range looks tasty
James
@skonk
Mar 10 2018 15:47 UTC
Looks like how drones work with regards to when you take them with a unit has changed
i think they take on the battlefield role of the unit who took them
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 19:11 UTC
So here's a fun fact:
ETC bans all index entries once a codex comes out. The more you know
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Mar 10 2018 19:12 UTC
Wow, that's hardline...!
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 19:12 UTC
I understand why they do it -- it removes many complications
But that's also one event (granted, a very big one)
A friend of mine said this the other day. "We here in the States like to think we're hardcore 40K players. We ain't got nothing on the Europeans."
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Mar 10 2018 19:17 UTC
Which makes it even funnier that GW have no idea how tournament players work the rules to the limit...
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Mar 10 2018 19:19 UTC
What is the ETC?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 19:25 UTC
European Team Championship
A pretty hardcore tournament played by teams from all over the world
It's probably the closest thing there is a 40K world championship
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Mar 10 2018 19:27 UTC
Ah
I don't do hard-core 40k
Because its a terrible game system for something like that
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Mar 10 2018 19:28 UTC
Well I don't mean it in that sense
I mean the teams are made up of some of the best 40K players each country has to offer.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Mar 10 2018 19:36 UTC
Even so, 40k and tournaments are something that I stay away from because 40k isn't a tight enough ruleset
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 20:31 UTC
steel legion is out of stock in the US again :(
no index means no riffle dreads...i think really only Salamanders and GK would care
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 20:32 UTC
Autocannons are just bad
I’m kinda sad that my railheads are probably going to become ionheads
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 20:37 UTC
yeah, i'm not seeing a point where rail is better than ion right now, aside from points still
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 22:39 UTC
Hey, a quick RFC for rule number 0 of our Guidelines:
  1. All choices, entries, upgrades etc. that are: valid, possibly valid or possibly invalid MUST be represented (implemented) and MUST NOT raise errors/warnings. This is the single most important rule. If there is a doubt if an option is legal, it MUST be included. Motivation: we are not rules lawyers. Our effort targets all audiences, no matter their personal decisions, erratas or agreements. Our only source is Rules As Written (RAW), published by Games Workshop and their subsidiaries (Forge World etc.); that includes officially posted Erratas and FAQs (Facebook pages, emails and other unofficial channels excluded).
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Mar 10 2018 22:54 UTC
Looks good to me
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 23:06 UTC
Come on. I need at least 3 affirmations :D Or even better, some constructive criticism ;) (not a native speaker myself)
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Mar 10 2018 23:07 UTC
Sounds good
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 23:15 UTC
Is there something after that about where to go to discuss what’s possibly valid?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Mar 10 2018 23:18 UTC
Didn't catch that, can you reformulate?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Mar 10 2018 23:34 UTC
I would change the first part to remove "possibly invalid", it doesn't make sense that we would include things that would be possibly invalid... We should only include things that are Valid, or could be reasonably argued to be valid and cannot be easily invalided
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 23:44 UTC
Possibly valid does seem to cover possibly invalid
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Mar 10 2018 23:45 UTC
:wink: without sounding like we don't have a clue what we're doing
tekton
@tekton
Mar 10 2018 23:45 UTC
It’s like games that give “rested xp” as opposed to a “play too much penalty”- it’s the same thing, but one has a better connotation and is accepted more readily
I still play GK, it would seem I don’t have a clue what I’m doing
@amis92 just wanted to make sure there was a “if you feel something is actually valid please raise an issue in app/GitHub” statement
Did not know X P would show up as an emoji....huh