These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

19th
Apr 2018
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Apr 19 2018 00:08
Hey @Crowbar90 how about this f1 season so far? Lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Apr 19 2018 04:11
@/all can someone check the ground temperature and make sure its not permafrost? #2902 is rational and constructive
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Apr 19 2018 04:50
@Kohato question for you
did you ever find a good way to handle the "take everything at least once" issue with ctan powers?
I'm running into that problem trying to do a wych cults combat drug selector
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Apr 19 2018 04:59
aha, got it
Francesco Venturoli
@Crowbar90
Apr 19 2018 06:05
@alphalas actually I haven't really been following it this season... But I think we can agree that as long as there's a red car winning it's going great!
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Apr 19 2018 06:12
@WindstormSCR, yup, it appears hell has frozen over... Rational, constructive, concise, correct, AND polite!!
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:15
His accounts been hacked
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 07:21
Whose?
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:23
BCB
or he's been abducted by aliens
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:41
I still have a strong emotional response to disregard him and the issue, but that'd be wrong. The impulse is strong tho...
Ahem.
Problem I have with that is if I change the Sergeant to BA standard (whatever that might be) it becomes inconsistent with the rest of the cat.
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:42
You'd think he'd be tied up in the eternal FAQ struggle on Dakka but he still finds time to scan through for minor inconsistencies in BS.
Dude has some serious ...dedication.. to the cause !
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:43
consequently, if we do this, we create precedence for everything else and therefore have to aboard the "every maintainer can do what he wants" and introduce fixed guidlines on how everything has to be done
not objectively wrong, but a shift in policy coupled with quite a bit of work
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:44
Sounds like common sense ... hang on while I grab my popcorn before anyone replies to the issue ... brb
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:44
well I can just go on and reply with my thoughts. Just need to be careful not to fry the bacon...
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:45
@Thairne you BSData guys are just so combative and close minded to feedback .. I don't know why I waste my time pulling apart your work ... hang on .. there's a grammatical error on Aeldari cat ... brb writing a new issue
that JohnnyHell character on Dakka ripped him a new one on an issue yesterday ... I was in tears ..
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:48
hackles rising....
He did? I gotta check that post :P
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 07:50

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/754650.page

in there somwhere .... tis' a silly place, be careful where you tread!

BCB arguing that if a model has three weapons it can fire ALL at one target or all at different targets .. but not a single target twice
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:52
I know da YMDC. It's like the room in hell were all lawyers go...
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 07:58
well he does seem to have a reputation... :P
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 08:00
Conspiracy theory of the month ... they are the same person, just schizophrenic
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 08:13
ah
we are sloppy. We have to comply.
urge to murder... rising...
Thairne @Thairne rolls a D20
Thairne @Thairne rolls a 7
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 08:18
urge to murder contained
sk_Father_Price_twitter @sk_Father_Price_twitter quickly googles cute kitten pictures to send to Thairne
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:10
@Thairne about that bolt pistol (ref comment), is that a case of an entry group requiring two different default choices?
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 09:11
yup
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:11
Okay so I think I've hacked that
Take a look at how a Commander in T'au has it's Weapons done
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Apr 19 2018 09:12
use min1, set min1 to 0 to get multiple defaults. Also take a look at any of the Chaos HQ/characters which have weapon choices.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:13
That
image.png
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 09:14
so you're not doing it by selecting a default, but by forcing a selection and then removing the min 1?
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Apr 19 2018 09:15
yup
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 09:16
I see.
Doesn't work with how Tacs are currently
because I've split them up to be min max 1 per hand instead of a min max 2 for the entire model...
which I did because I wanted checkboxes instead of select boxes if I remember right
that is however something I need to keep in mind
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:37
You know how it goes: if there's a half-cooked solution, it'll live forever ;)
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 09:37
tell me about it.
I've reached new levels of frustration in my IRL IT job...
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:40
Hey, I can identify, prob not so big as you get, but try to fix a bug when analyst from my company and product owner from client both have vacation, and yet I'm continuously asked how's progress... :D
Also: @/all if you've got some interesting implementations/hacks/solutions for non-obvious problems, let's share :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 09:43

bah. I'm asked how the progress is after a meeting in which I planned that 10 mins ago, followed up by another meeting where the first meeting is being reverted followed by me trying to actually DO some work, but failing since I have no clue of the matter at hand since noone seems to have any idea... neither my boss nor product management. But sales got the customer, therefore we now need to invest 400 man days into a interface noone has any experience or knowledge in.
And the best thing is - customer was promised the date of 28.2.18. For 400 MD. Which basically I have to do. with no knowledge of the specific field.
And in 2 mins there's the next meeting. And tomorrow at 9am is the next.

takes a deep breath

scrum can suck my dick. "Agile" is a synonym for "clueless".
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:47
Yeah, thought so. You've got it harsh-er ;D
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
Apr 19 2018 09:54
Are there plans to implement the 'headless vanguard detachment' validation from the new FAQ? I had a quick browse through issues and didn't see anything
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 09:59
I'm not sure but I think it's already done?
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
Apr 19 2018 09:59
sweet
Not in 1.1.34 though?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 10:01
Yup, there it is: BSData/wh40k@43bdcb1
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 10:01
wasnt in the last release, no
you can put that up on the list of hacks if you want ^^
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 10:05
I'll leave it to you, mostly because I don't know what the hack is there :D
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 10:06
ah. i used the same ID for the forces in each different cat, so theyre compatible with each other (ie. you can build a detachment using all three if you want)
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
Apr 19 2018 10:08
Looks good :+1: cheers folks! the speed you all get fixes out after codex/faq is impressive
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Apr 19 2018 10:20
^still apparently not fast enough lol
New dex drops
3 seconds later
Report points are wrong! Where is X unit!
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 10:47
@GenWilhelm I think current solution doesn't work. I may be wrong, but what's to stop you from creating a Vanguard Detachment with, say, 2 assassins and a Space Marine Apothecary (no HQ allowed by Assassins)? And it's undoable in BattleScribe right now.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 10:49
the big scary error message i was talking about yesterday stops you :D
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 10:49
Yeah, I know, I just got it :D It's beautiful in it's own way :D
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 10:50
it tells you you have an invalid force and removes it from the roster
but it works correctly within the factions that should have access to it ^^
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 10:51
Well, yeah. But their rules (that allow "headless vanguard") don't restrict what else can be in that Detachment :>
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 10:52
oh, i see what you mean. only the units in those factions have permission to be included in such a detachment
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:15
I don't think it works on a "premission" system. It's like, hey, if you include this unit in Vanguard, you may not add HQ to it but then you loose Command Benefit.
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 11:19
the abilities say "you can include this unit in a Vanguard Detachment even if that Detachment contains no HQ units."
so a unit without such an ability would not be able to join that detachment unless it had an HQ
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 11:38

@Thairne - Linky for you ... might push you over the edge though, be warned

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:38
I love it :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:45
processing...
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:50
@GenWilhelm I'm not really convinced, because the wording doesn't really help here. RAW, this rule doesn't quite do anything, because it "allows you to include a unit in a detachment lacking HQ" but it doesn't really make taking that detachment legal anyway. The intent is pretty clear (regarding allowing these units in vanguard), but then it's not (regarding how's that detachment legalized).
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:54
this video triggered a genuin anger and stress response.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:54

I mean, if they wanted to make separate detachment just for these three factions, why not do that? Like

Agents of Imperium Detachment

Restrictions: Your WARLORD must be from IMPERIUM. All units in this detachment must have one of the following keywords: LoTD, SoS, Assassin
Command Benefits: None

Done, fixed it for you GW.

Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:54
I am more stressed out than before.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:55
@Thairne it does that, doesn't it. Like, you want to choke all these other people.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:55
it hits too close to home
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 11:55
oh no, not snowflake detachments... abandon all hope ye who tread that path
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:56
It's snowflake anyway, by your interpretation.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:56
except they want me to do it and I'm NOT an expert
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:56
:D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:56
and if I ask how I should draw a red line I have to wait or the next meeting where we find out we dont know how to draw red lines
I need a breath of fresh air.
Or punch someone in the face.
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 11:57
shit! ... sorry man
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:57
i have been warned :P
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 11:57
@amis92 it is, but it still plays by the main rulebook. its just packaged differently, so it doesnt open the door to more down the road
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 11:57
its ok, I'm looking at getting into another company already... and it is amusing in a strange, strangle-inducing way
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Apr 19 2018 11:58
gah, anyone anygood with google sheets ?
how can something so simple be so complex
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 11:59
Well, it's a very irritating packaging. Because now units have rules/abilities that change how Army/Detachments are built. In software we call that Inversion of Control. Except for us it's good, and here it's not. (scratch that) It's just bad.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 12:19
... #2911
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 12:23
oh Kohato, we're just sloppy.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 12:24
I can't wait until he starts to play necrons.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 12:24
also
BSData/wh40k#2901
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 12:28
Hey, i'm just waiting for him to "Report us to GW" again
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 12:29
Well, you know, it's included in our https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/wiki/Guidelines (11.). I admit, he could approach us and formulate sentences with a little more empathy, but oh well :/
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 12:34
That's a nice way to say it. I would've gone a different route, but that's nice :p
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Apr 19 2018 13:25
Eh I’m in AM anyway I’ll take a look at it
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Apr 19 2018 13:45
Now that I’m awake and reading through my emails...
Again I too hate to say it but #2902 he’s got a point
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 13:46
Not arguing there, homogeneity is good.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Apr 19 2018 13:52
And it is something we’ve been discussing too re: GSC HWTs too
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
Apr 19 2018 13:57
The GSC HWT issue still bugs me, I look for an answer every FAQ :P
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Apr 19 2018 13:59
you're not the only one >_>
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:18
Each solution (as long as it allows proper list creation) can be a unique solution and doesn't need to be 'standardized' especially in a product as varied as the crazy number of catalogs in the 40K repo.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:18
but it would be better if it could work the same, no doubt
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:19
It may make it easier for end users, but each solution is a valid answer.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:19

theoretical: it would work better in UX
practical: different requirements make that a complicated matter

Ultramarine-style

OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:19
The 'math/programming/implementation' can be different, but the result at the end of the listbuilding experience should be valid.
It's like cooking a hotdog. You can boil them (like the street vendors) you can cook them up on the griddle. You can put all sorts of topings on them ... but at the end, you have a (quasi-edible) food product that at least somewhat resembles the picture on the package.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:29
@Thairne And we only have one Ultramarines cat.... so not everything can be perfect. ;)
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:30
that's why it's a discussion.
We'll never get BCB to agree, I think we can agree on that one at the least... so...
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:32
It's list maintainers choice. Again, we're looking at implementation by volunteers to meet the standard of 'a valid list is provided at the end of the process' (much like making a sausage ... the ingredients don't always look appetizing between the beginning and end of the process.)
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:33
"but that's sloppy work!"
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:33
Is it?
Does the list work?
"Sloppy work" would be invalid list creations at the end of the process.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:34
Okay, but @OftKilted, the Guidelines have arisen from exactly that issue: lack of standardization. And their aim is to slowly increase homogenity, starting with the most prominent issues, but in the end down to the details too.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:35
So ... a 'specific guideline' for a specific case isn't particularly useful when moving towards the end goal.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:35
That I didn't catch.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:35
How would one take this specific type of request (a list formatting issue) and wrap it into a 'general best practice for selecting items'?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:36
I hope we can, in the end, have a "template" for most squad layouts.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:36
The request is to be 'less sloppy' but Necrons don't have Space Marines in their list. So the 'formatting' doesn't apply. They do have selections and sub selections.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:36
well for one you could define that all of the same wargear is grouped together into an incrementer and not in radio buttons like I did?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:37
How would one wrap the visualization and make it a generically useful standard?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:38
That's a good question. I think "by example" is the best we can do :)
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:39
Specifically saying that 'Space Marines should be X' doesn't provide a 'general guideline' and jumps from the current 'core guidelines' to an edge case.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:39
" a model with one specific equipment item (specified by name) should have a checkbox if none or one is available. If 2 or more of the same item are available for selection, a number selector should be presented and not multiple entries which can be selected separately" ?
you need to think more abstract and less in "necron" and "space marine". Rather in "model", "selection" and "items"
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:40
@Thairne I'm not saying that your implementation is bad, or wrong. (it may be the best) But that's what I'm attempting to get to. A 'generic solution' not a Space Marines should be x.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:41
that's what I tried to provide with a quick concept of how, in this specific case, it could be done
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:42
Which is much better from a guidelines perspective, and would move towards the vision that @amis92 has out there on the horizon :)
And less like the specific complaint in #2902 ... which is a complaint about a specific edge case for a set of units. (not something like what you are proposing as a general solution).
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:45
Well, #2902 provoked this quality discussion, resulting in a proposition for a new guideline. I'd call that a good outcome. :D
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:50
@Thairne A generic visualization of implementation and the expected results in the roster creator would be an excellent addition to the guidelines.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:51
yes, so that we better can ignore it since we do not enforce the guidelines because we are volunteers :D
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:51
But it sounds pretty good 'conceptually' ... Is that the implementation of what the user is requesting? Or what would actually work best for maintainers?
I'd probably add it in as a 'MAY'. It's better for ignoring from that perspective.
@oftkilted adjusts his halo
;)
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:53
in the end you should define it from a result point of view
the HOW you get there is not regulated as ling as you just get there
you define the result and the path there is free
this differs from the current guideline just by setting the result a bit earlier - from valid list to normalized ux in the roster editor
amis92 @amis92 tries to keep straight face in spite of a bleeding heart
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:55
I think this should be a MAY, in that it assists with getting a solution to a typical use case. If a maintainer chooses to use it, then it helps make consistent results.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:56
but if you dont use it, you just end up undermining the whole purpose of the thing...
so rather a "if possible" instead of "may"
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:57
I would say 'RECOMMENDED' or 'SHOULD'
based on the RFC 2119 reference.
'if possible' puts one closer to 'SHOULD'
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:57
We may just start with adding a Problem+Solution https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/wiki/Sample-Problem-Solution-Collection
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 14:58
dude
you some kind of internet word perfectionist? We're not at work here and we're not Emperor's Children and we don't feed Slanneesh here :P
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 14:58
The guidelines are calling out the RFC. Not me. 'if possible' isn't a RFC 2119 option ... unfortunately.
amis92 @amis92 raises hand
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 14:59
I've started this, please don't hurt me :D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 15:00
the feth... ok google told me whats this all about, and yes, SHOULD works
March 1997.
Dude.
Harvard university.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 15:00
I blame @amis92 for this. I'm sure that he is the one that included it in the 'definitions' section.
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 15:01
Holding Battlescribe Authors up to 20 year old Harvard standartisations seems... excessive xD
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Apr 19 2018 15:02
It's pretty standard to be used across multiple other RFCs and similar.
:D
Dirk Bachert
@Thairne
Apr 19 2018 15:02
aint nobody got time for dat! :smile:
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 15:06
@Thairne Well that’s just sloppy work ... ;)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Apr 19 2018 18:03
Tbh, the space marine cat does have a problem already in this case because the guidelines say "selecting a unit shouldn't generate errors" (or something along those lines)
The implementation of the Dark Angels selection is not pretty from a UX perspective but it does comply with the standard...
And the rest of the discussion is good and valid and I agree :+1: :smile:
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Apr 19 2018 18:05
@FarseerVeraenthis 'SHOULD' is not 'MUST'
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Apr 19 2018 19:36
perhaps it should be.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Apr 19 2018 19:59
Ah yes, 11.
Units SHOULD be implemented in such a way that when adding unit to roster, it is a valid choice (no errors/warnings raised) and also resembles as close as possible the choice as presented by default in unit's datasheet.
was on my phone earlier
I quite like it, and as far as I remember the only errors that popped up when I wrote the Eldar CAT originally were to do with Powers, and I think they were nixed by Windstorm
Loud is Loud
@LoudisLoud_twitter
Apr 19 2018 21:40
Hey, can anyone here do me a favor? The 40k battlescribe datafiles missed something from the FW FAQ. Basically, the leviathon Dreadnaught can take 3 hunter killer missles at 6 pts a piece now
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Apr 19 2018 21:48
@LoudisLoud_twitter Its in there, I'll see if its been in a release yet
file v46
@LoudisLoud_twitter it hasn't been released yet, should be rolled inot a release tonight or tomorrow, if you really badly need the most updated version you can follow the instructions to use Github desktop to pull directly from the working repository
Loud is Loud
@LoudisLoud_twitter
Apr 19 2018 21:58
Ok, thanks so much. I thought it might have been missed! I appreciate your response