These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

17th
May 2018
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:00
So where does that leave the Watch captains?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:01
amusingly enough with the full captain option set
plus the vet list
I'm making a list of changes I need to make
because it has to be implemented as written
so it's going to be odd
just let me know when you're all done with other profiles and stuff and I'll work on the HQ stuff
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:02
so the codex watch captain entry is completely gone?
that makes no sense
you can just send the list to me and I'll do the changes
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:03
no
how it works
take the codex sheet, codex points values, and ADD to the codex wargear options box anything missing from the index one
lets use librarian in terminator armor as the simple one
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:05
I get how that works
that is easy
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:05
DW codex:
May take an item from terminator combi-weapons list
may replace force stave
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:06
the captain's entry in the codex becomes irrelevant because the index would completely invalidate all of the options and restrictions in the codex
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:06
Index:
*May replace storm bolter with a storm shield or an item from the list
however
LB in terminator armor in the codex doesn't have a default stormbolter, so you'd think that that wargear option wouldn't be valid
but they set a precedent with commissars, where you simply add the original default wargear as an option in the same set >.>
so in this case its a dude with a stave, who can take SB/SS/or from the combi list
in the case of the standard watch captain
his current two things MUST stay as-is
but with the following additions
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:10
you can't have must swap both and can swap either in the same entry
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:10
yeah you can
you want me to do the entry so you can see how?
I've done this before, its basically autarch 2.0
only faaaaaaar worse
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:10
no I mean logically
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:10
yeah
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:11
they are essentially mutually exclusive
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:11
each line of "wargear options" is a separate set of logical constraints
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:11
because they both reference the same lists
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:11
actually they don't
codex watch cap references dw equipment only
let me just do the entry and you'll see what I mean
remember, any alterations made by the DW sidebar in the index go out the window
as stupid as it is
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:13
why is that?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:13
because of the wording
the DC very specifically calls out the wargear options box and NOTHING ELSE
and GW themselves have set precedent where the DC can overwrite index restrictions
see: ministorum priest and comissar... again
that's why I'd like to hammer these in so I can tag them correctly and make the logic easy
rather than needing to reproduce a bunch of lists
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:15
you are going to need a bunch of extra lists
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:15
surprisingly not really
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:15
some of them may still be there but he's going to have like 7 lists to choose from
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:16
Just give me a shout when you don't have uncommitted changes
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:16
DW equipment, pistols, melee(twice), combi
ok so 5 lists lol
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:16
it'll take me a couple hours straight to bang this crap in, and even then it'll give me a headache
its like a codex full of goddamn autarchs
@FarseerVeraenthis we have a new winner in the DC shenanigans department
the crown no longer belongs to craftworlds
so yeah
I have time to do it tonight but I don't want to cause another XML explosion scare
so let me know when I'm clear to work
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:20
I'm still of the opinion that this all just stops cold at step 3
ARE THERE WARGEAR OPTIONS FOR YOUR
MODEL THAT ONLY APPEAR IN THE INDEX
VERSION OF ITS DATASHEET?
there is no watch captain index datasheet
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 00:21
@acebaur yes there is
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:21
it says "Captain" not "Watch Captain"
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:21
unfortunately because of GW's insistance of "model" being separate from "datasheet name"
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 00:22
By calling out “Watch Captain: Use Captain” they saved the space of having to reprint the same data sheet again
^ this too
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:22
it was dumb then and its dumb now
but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 00:25
I Weep for Humanity.gif
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:27
you weep while I enjoy (for once) being able to give GW the middle finger and use some models I deeply enjoyed converting at the original DW release before they began taking FAQ shits on the codex then
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:30
looking at it, it honestly doesn't seem that hard to implement
add shit to chainsword replacement
make MC boltgun part of a group with it's replacement
keep DW equipment list separate and make you drop everything else if you choose from it
which unless you want an actual meltagun or similar you wouldn't even bother with
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:36
pretty much
and the terminator cap is much the same, just gets the melee option with the shield
terminator librarian just adds stormshield or the combi list
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:41
that's easy enough to do
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:42
if you want to go for it, I'll check against my whiteboard notes when you're done
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:43
sounds good, I'll hit you up when I'm done
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:44
just remember to tag stuff you add from it with (Index)
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:44
I Thought we weren't doing that?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:44
we are
precedent set a while ago
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 00:44
We don't tag units.
Index gear is a bit different.
Like [FW]
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:45
so tag the gear lists?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 00:45
Since we can use "Book" to notate the source of a unit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:45
yeah, its not unit entries that get tagged, but gear option in entries when its a codex/index mix
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 00:45
or specific options if necessary
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 00:45
We can define book for gear too, but it's not visible in the lists.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 00:45
yeah, so like stormshield on the librarian will need a new SSE to show the (Index) tag
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 01:17
you said the side bar for DW wargear in the index doesn't apply?
so adding the hand flamer and inferno to the pistols list doesn't happen?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 01:22
that's the thing, if there is a list in the codex with the same name, that takes precedence, but any omitted list options are re-added
example say power weapons was a list
and had lance, axe, sword
and the codex made it sword, axe added fist but omitted lance
the DC list result would be the second one plus lance re-added
so in this case because the deathwatch codex has a list named pistols with those in it, they can take them fine
it is, like all deprecation bullshit, weird

DeprecationWasAMistake

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 01:30
@acebaur it also means that terminator captains will have access to lightning claws on the terminator melee list they use
I'd just add that to the list with a "hide if ancestor not instance of terminator captain"
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 01:30
:+1:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 03:32
Erk #2997 was an old bug -- sorry I let that slide for so long. Oh well, fixed now.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 03:33
@CrusherJoe #2379 is eeeeven oooolder
and reminds me I need to implement #2708 for deathwatch, its a pain in the ass and you can't just copy the BA entry because the editor freaks out
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 03:34
Wait, WHAT?
I never saw #2379 before
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 03:35
its been in the opens for a long ass time
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 03:36
Huh
I guess because it didn't have a tag in the subject for a cat I do
Sorry, y'all
Fixing it now
Super-quick, super-easy fix. Yay!
Thanks for pointing that out to me @WindstormSCR
Done now
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 05:31
lol at #3099
tekton
@tekton
May 17 2018 05:47
Updates- they do a roster gud
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
May 17 2018 07:22
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 11:05
on the subject of Deathwatch, combat squads, there is no limit on the split, so you can get a squad with 5 veterans, 2 bikers and 3 vanguard veterans, and split it 5 to 2/3. Now, the second squad is still a squad of veterans, but the combo of VV and Biker means it can (if it needed to) fall back, still shoot, and then assault. Sounds like a good way of tying up your opponents shooty units
and also @WindstormSCR those equipment lists do sound pretty nasty
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 11:09
yeah, spotted that too when i first looked at the dex. take some dakka bikers, throw a vanguard in there, and youve got a fast shooty unit that can fall back and shoot
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 11:14
nvm, the bikers dont get access to any real ranged weapons. i guess theyve still got something to learn from scouts
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 11:59
Anyone here who worked on the Combat Drugs for Drukhari?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 12:06
at a guess, either Toreador, who originally built the file, or @WindstormSCR, who currently maintains it
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 13:57
@GenWilhelm twin bolters with SIA are still pretty nasty, plus the bikers can all fire their pistols at the same times. The whole Deathwatch army is definitely geared towards short - mid range firefights
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 14:06
@IdleMuse I'm pretty sure @WindstormSCR is your guy... what do you want to know??
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 14:09
I just found what I thought was a bug earlier but I need to like, update my version etc. before submitting it as a ticket
which I can't do from work :P
Also might be worth checking I'm not misinterpreting it
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:16
let us know what the issue is and we can take a look too :smile:
@FarseerVeraenthis they can fire pistols at the same time as a non-pistol?
if only they were like scouts, who can use a shotgun while also firing the twin bolter
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 14:18
my understanding is that a model can fire all weapons it is equipped with
oh, yeah, sorry
its pistols or not
got all excited them
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 14:20
Okay so, with combat drugs, you've gotta take all six before you can double up on them, right? The way I'm reading the codex, once you've got all six, you're free to take as many as you want.
The validation for this seems to imply that you need to do all six a second time before you can have a third of the same (which I think is how it used to work in 7th?? Or in the index version? I can't remember).
I mean, I'm impressed it even validates this sort of thing at all
Wording from codex "Alternatively, you can pick the bonus the unit receives, but if you do this you cannot choose a bonus that has already been taken by another unit until all six combat drugs have been taken once each."
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:22
yeah, looks like it should work the way you describe
have they had an faq about it?
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 14:22
I shall check
Nope, for neither codex nor index
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:24
so yeah, once you've picked all 6, you should be able to take them in any combination you wish
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 14:26
i certainly have a list atm (which may not be up to date) where it fails validation with "2 too many selections of X (max 2)
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:28
thats how its working on mine too
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 14:31
yeah, that will be some tricky logic to make the validation work correctly
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:32
set max 1 to -1 if you have at least 1 of each?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 14:41
yeah, that's a lot of extra lines though...
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 14:41
i mean it's less than what's currently there :smile:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 14:44
there are two interpretations of how it works, i designed it with the more common one, after looking at GW's intent with similar abilities (ctan powers)
ultimately its there as a convenience thing
Justin Dee
@IdleMuse
May 17 2018 14:46
submitted as #3100 anyway
The Ctan example specifies that you need to buy them in 'sets' though, right?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 15:08
Yep, the wording is nearly exactly the same
I'll take a second look at it
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 15:17
Taking a second look, I actually agree with you RAW and I'm trying to find a way the opposite arguments work
so it'll be fixed in the harlequins/webway release
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 15:31
I've renamed some labels to Area - - former "bugs" and Requests are now both under that umbrella.

#Announcement

Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 15:32
So GW's GT pack drops points to 1750
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 15:33
Really?
That’s interesting that they’re going back to 1750
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 15:34
Yes, really
I'm not a fan
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 15:34
Maybe they overestimated how quick can you play 8th edition ;)
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 15:34
I'd like GTs to be 2500-3000 honestly
I play with a chess clock to practice playing faster. I play a full Guard brigade, and I routinely finish games on time (in tournaments with 2 or 2.5 hour time limits)
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 15:35
I mean, at first I was amazed, but then stratagems and stuff came, Codexes introduced a lot of new rules like subfactions, and we're maybe not back like 7th, but games are longer, I think.
Wow. Respect.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 15:39
Much respect
tbh though I like 1750
because it forces choices
and makes souping harder (except the IG problem I don't think is getting solved anytime soon)
and honestly, I don't mind the IG problem
imperium isn't top of the pile, and it is actually fluffy most of the time to have some guard dudes around
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 15:40
Yeah I don’t know I kind of like 1750 too
It’s not the random arbitrary the 1850 was so there’s that
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 15:40
:-1:
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
May 17 2018 15:40
isnt any given points limit entirely arbitrary?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 15:41
@CrusherJoe also most people aren't as adept at rapid movement, or intentionally don't to slow play with an excuse
@acebaur news on the HQ index fixes?
I want to get that merged and released before I shove harlequins into master at some stage
@amis92
can we get a "reference" tag for bugs?
that way we can close the active ones but still find/link to them easily
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 15:43
Yeah, sure
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 15:44
pretty sure that's why joe missed the old redemptor one, it was crammed in among a bunch of reference bugreps
@FarseerVeraenthis craftworlds mixed detachments in, on clowns branch
if you want to give it a spin for me and see if anything else needs validation to only show at certain times
I hit all the relics/characters I think
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:03
@CrusherJoe out of curiosity, arguments against 1750?
since I'm slowly becoming the defacto local TO again
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:08

@/all

#Announcement

I've done a refactor of Issue Labels. If you find something not satisfying, please complain.

The major changes are:

  • instead of Bugs we have Areas to which the issue applies
  • a separate new Kind category labels, with Kind - Bug and Kind - Request separated
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:09
any opposition to closing the reference ones and just using the tag to find them when needed?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:10
Nope. Also you can remove Announcement from them I guess
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 16:11
@WindstormSCR working on it, ran into some issues last night but I figured it out this morning, must have just been tired lol
I should have it done tonight
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:12
alright
@amis92 suggestion to put this filter link in the wiki: https://github.com/BSData/wh40k/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=label%3A%22Kind+-+Reference%22+
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 16:16
@WindstormSCR personally I think 2000 points is where 40K was designed around. At lower points values some armies lose the ability to pack and take a punch -- you'll see things like Maggy and/or Morty just dominating, because you won't have the points to include units that can bring them down
I also think the argument that "lower points == shorter games" is a disingenuous one. Why not play Kill Team if that's what you want? Or Shadespire? A 500 point game will certainly play quick, but that's not what I consider a "game" of 40K. It's training wheels.
If GW really wanted to address the game length issue, they'd remove about 90% of the re-roll auras in the game. Re-rolls literally double the time it takes a player to take an action, and that's what's slowing things down.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:20
@WindstormSCR done
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:30
@CrusherJoe I can see that side of the argument, its the reason HH implemented the 25% rule
to avoid certain super-units becoming overbearing
the problem is losing the re-roll auras pushes the game even further towards volume of fire over all else
@/all for the open play landraiders #2708 I think a GST entry that can be linked as root might be the best way to go, since it will cover all cats except the existing BA one, SW and CSM
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:39
So late to this convo
Where is GW saying 1750 now?
I thought the latest CA was still 2k
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:39
thier GT pack
for the WHW event
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:40
Oh interesting
I wonder if ITC will follow suit
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:40
probably not
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:40
no? they're all for shortening times.
They bumped down to 1750 back before 8th
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:40
@CrusherJoe the ability of big super-units to dominate also depends heavily on secondary objectives in the mission pack
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:42
Kind is a weird word.
Having now seen it used as a label
It looks weird.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:43
agreed.... perhaps Type instead?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:43
Aye, Type feels better on the whole.
Type H, for example
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:44
Sorry, it's kind of a work-induced oddity, as Type is a BCL type (or in other words a reserved name) in C#.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:45
I'll vote in favor of type, as it makes more sense linguistically
and since we don't work in programming languages, should be fine
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:46
new issue(bug){
BCB Was Here
}
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:46
Done
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:46
l33t skills here.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:48

;D lol @ your code @Kohato

also, if you fence the code above and below with triple backticks (`) it'll become a code block:

```
// code here
```
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 16:50
lol eventually it looks correct hahah
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:51
in other notes since we're doing a bunch of cleanup
anyone seen @tag8833 recently?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 16:51
Yeah, escaping backticks doesn't work like I thought. So, there's also a second way to make a code block, indent every line with 4 spaces ;D
Yeah, no. Absent recently.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:52
Anyone fancy orks? I don't know enough about how they work to stand a chance of knowing the issues
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 16:52
I know he said he’s been busy af last time he popped in
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 16:53
I'd rather not take them simply because I'd have to do a lot of reading just to get familiar with them
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 17:01
What needs to be done to orks?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 17:02
some ca/faq updates
also the eventual codex release which from all indications will be a massive overhaul
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 17:04
I might be open to it, I've faced my friends Orks a number of times and read through their dex a fair amount
plus DW is not a huge cat either
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 17:05
I'll make you a different branch for them then once your DW stuff is done
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 17:06
sure
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 17:08

Question: how should we label things like BSData/wh40k#1238 where the actual subject was solved but somewhere else?

Originally I planned "Resolution - merged" to be used for it, but it seems it's now used to mark issues with solution "merged" into master.

Or for all these BattleScribe problems that we delegate to BattleScribe's site.
"Delegated"?
"Forwarded"?
tekton
@tekton
May 17 2018 17:09
External?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 17:10
"Resolution - Expired Issue"
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 17:10
^ I like this
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 17:11
Well, we have "deprecated" already...?
@alphalas not sure which one, but I like External better
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 17:12
I was saying @Kohato’s answer lol
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 17:16
Somtimes things just ... go away
"Resolution - Died, forgotten and alone"
"Resolution - Exterminatus"
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 17:19
@Kohato I totally read that in Jeff golblum’s voice. Good job
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 17:21
lol
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 18:43
Okay
I'll admit
The latest round of Knight rumors have me downright aroused
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 18:58
details?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 19:06
Craftworlds mixed detachments... huh??
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 19:11
to fit with the standards
of "no faction selected by default"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 19:21
@WindstormSCR short version:
32750601_10104906699716606_6400845441184825344_n.jpg
Slightly longer version:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 19:22
so big walking targets that will cost roughly 610pts
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 19:26
With a 3++ that can go to a 2++
(I would assume via strat, and only temporarily)
No word if that's vs. shooting and melee or just shooting
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 19:30
IK do not need 3++
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 19:31
bit excessive
I can still deal with it
my scorpion will have things to hunt
jinx+doom and twin pulsars may cost me ~800pts, but do an average of 14w to an IK even through that
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 19:34
If you don't have a LoW yourself you are basically screwed against something like that
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 19:37
yeah, even 4 lascannons have a decent chance to do nothing
4++ would have been fine, leviathan is proof of that
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 19:45
Well, I'm not rich enough to run 3
I'll take one as support though
1 Baby Titan, 3 IK, 4 Armigers.
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe eyes his knights, sitting where they have been since...August of last year.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 19:47
I haven't run just IK in a while
I usually take one or an armiger or two as a splash for Admech though
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 19:56
@amis92 What's the effective difference in your logic for a 'TYPE - ' v.s. an 'AREA - ' for labeling?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 19:58
Area is strictly catalogue-wise. Type is the general type of issue, ie bug/request/announcement
You may have a Type-request for Area-validation change, or Type-bug for Area-point cost
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 20:00
basically, major and minor categories of issues
helps with sorting
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:00
So, a it's a taxonomic kind of change.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
May 17 2018 20:00
si
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:00
I'm sorry :o It was stronger than me...
amis92 @amis92 goes to hiding
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:01
@amis92 ?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:03
/me mumbles it's all about efficiency, hierachical labeling and perfectionism, also being prettier and more colorful
oooh editing doesn't fix it ;D
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:04
It's fewer label variations. 8 Labels can do effectively the work of 16 old labels in some circumstances.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:06

Yeah, I think. And also can better describe, allowing more "combinations" of more atomic descriptors.

Still not happy about all the catalogues having their own labels, kinda.

Maybe at least some prefix for them so they group together in views.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:08
@WindstormSCR yeah, I thought about that a few moments after I typed it but I'd turned the laptop off and I've only now come up to my computer / painting station
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 20:17
How do you make the system change a name on something that is a shared entry but only in certain circumstances?
Like for example adding "index" to the watch captains pistols entry
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:18
add a modifier to the link with "append"
example modifier append name " (Index)"
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:19
Okay, so.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
May 17 2018 20:19
Ah ok
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:20
@amis92 catalogs having thier own labels really helps with finding relevant bugs when working on them after the list gets up to 30+ open
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:21
It would seem that in the local-ish meta the list to beat is this nonsense:
1x 6-7
2x 5
Plus a Bike shield Captain
And Banner Boy
nuts
Okay 3 squads of banana bikers 1x6-7 and 2x5
Something like that
There's some Guard battalion for CP, of course, but they're min Infantry squads with mortars and I think a heavy weapons team in the HS slot
You get the idea
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:23
hmmm
I can already think of a couple of things, but you're not going to like them
point 1: everything on that list has fly, but no hard to hit
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:24
The next major event I'm going to is the Sidewinder GT in El Paso -- and there's a good chance I could play against that list (it's being run by Colin, who's won WGC 2 years in a row)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:24
point 2: it all has a 4++ so volume of fire and multi-damage is king
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:24
Right -- hang on I'm getting there
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:24
point 3: str 7 or higher is desirable for wounding on 3+
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:24
The second "up and coming" pain in the ass list is something the dark city people call "Meat Mountain"
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:25

@amis92 catalogs having thier own labels really helps with finding relevant bugs when working on them after the list gets up to 30+ open

Yeah, I know they're useful, but also they irritate my inner feeling of... something I can't name. Maybe adding prefix so they sort correctly would help me ;)

WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:25
point 4: that means autocannons are the single most effective weapons system, and you're looking at things like contemptor-mortis and deredeo to kill them
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:25
9-10 Grotesques with a Haemonculus to make them T6
So: those are the two things that will be the gatekeepers
After some discussion, I came up with this abomination, and would like some serious critique/feedback
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:28
Q: what do you have access to that can fall back and still shoot
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:28
derp.PNG
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:30
hmmm
only real issue I can see with that is you're basically slamming two anvils together and letting random chance decide who to favor
while a different approach basically playing counter to the meta might see more results, in this case something with longer range but ability to disengage without issue
and with weapon types designed to punch through invulns with multi-damage
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:40
Okay: which prefix is better for all the catalogue labels:
  1. Cat: XYZ
  2. Data: XYZ
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:40
@amis92 CAT.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:40
Also I'd add a label for Game System.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:40
That should just be 'GST' as there is only one GST currently for each game.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:40
But then "Cat: Game System" is weird.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:41
CAT: GST
It's the GST catalog.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:41
Well, game system is a catalogue right now essentially, with just some additional stuff...
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:42
So, they are all cats. I've named this one Mephistopheles.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:43
Cat: or CAT: ? It's a shortcut, but caps scream. Help.
LOL :D
OR maybe a glyph?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:44
@WindstormSCR my experience with my own shield captains is that it's not the big stuff that kills them -- I can (as a rule) roll a few 3++ no problem
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:44
it is actually a .cat
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:44
It's those pesky 2+ en masse that generally result in me pulling a biker boy off the table
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:45
CAT clarifies that it isn't a Siamese (Cat)
Or just label it 'Catalog: '
In line with spelling out all of the other choices.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:46
I'm not totally convinced that including Pask is a good idea. He's expensive, but for those special moments where I'm -1 or -2 to hit, Pask really shines -- especially "Pound Them to Dust"
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:46
Well, tried 💾 but emoticons don't influence sorting
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:46
Probably 'Catalog -'
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 20:47
I could probably shoehorn in a basilisk and a manticore for the points for Pask
OftKilted
@OftKilted
May 17 2018 20:47
Though ':' is easier on the eyes. It's less negative.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:47
I'm talking things with decent str, low ap, high fire rate, but multi-damage
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:47
Okay, it actually sorts :D
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:48
storm cannons, deredeo anvilus shots, hydras
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:48
image.png
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:48
@wondstorm, on a different note, you need to make "Craftworld Attribute" a default selection, the same as Masque Form is for Harlequins
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:48
it should be?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
May 17 2018 20:49
So how about that diskette emoji? :D
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:49
default is added to the list, with "none (mixed detachment)" selected
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:49
which file versin is that on?
I'm on v44 apparently
@amis, what is the disk for??
I mean, the label is long enough as it is, and it is clear that label is for the CAT isn't it??
@WindstormSCR aha! it does if it is the first force added to the detachment
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:53
yeah that's a known bug
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:53
but, if it is the second force added to a roster it does not autoselect
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:54
if you add forces after creation it won't show
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:54
that's that difficult question ansered then
:tongue:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 20:54
happens to all catalogs with defaults
jon has a bugrep in for it that's nearly a year old
still unfixed
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 20:56
righto, obviously not a high priority then...!
now, following @CrusherJoe 's question, how valuable are storm shields for marines?? i.e. should I drop a Veteran to swap for 3 x storm shields??
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 21:06
For individual single wound Marines I never found them to be that great. Sure you can keep a dude alive but in the end you'll still roll a dang 1 or 2 and then your expensive SS is wasted
Now on TWC, Libbies, etc. -- oh my yes please do.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 21:15
depends on the squad and the job they're doing, and what they're transported in
I run 1-2 per squad as insurance against stuff that would cut through normal armor
they don't cost an arm and a leg like the used to, 5pt isn't too bad to make a 100+ squad last longer
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:18
I'm playing a double tournament in a couple of weeks, my partner is running a classic Ultramarines Gunline, so I'm going a little off the wall with 2 x Corvus filled with 2 x squads of veterans and a Chaplain
they're going bug hunting from the sky
so I wonder if a couple of storm shields would increase the survivability of the "bodies" that re there simply to help deliver the rest of the squad to comabt
(and provide some extra SIA dakka)
(its 1k points)
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 21:21
I'd argue go for razorbacks over the corvus
the corvus just strikes me as so underwhelming unless you have a serious need to deliver bikes (or terminators and don't have a storm eagle)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:24
hmmm... currently each squad of veterans have a terminator and a vanguard veteran

++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Deathwatch) [61 PL, 1000pts] ++

  • HQ +
    Chaplain [5 PL, 73pts]: Bolt Pistol, Tome of the Ectoclades, Warlord, Watch Eternal

  • Troops +
    Veterans [16 PL, 235pts]
    . Watch Sergeant: Combi-melta, Xenophase Blade
    . Vanguard Veteran: Plasma pistol, Power sword
    . Terminator
    . . Power Fist and Stormbolter: Power fist, Storm Bolter
    . Vanguard Veteran: Heavy Thunder Hammer
    . Veteran: Boltgun
    . Veteran: Boltgun
    . Veteran: Boltgun
    . Veteran: Boltgun

Veterans [16 PL, 196pts]
. Black Shield: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Vanguard Veteran: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Terminator: Lightning Claw (Pair)
. Watch Sergeant: Boltgun
. Veteran: Boltgun
. Veteran: Boltgun
. Veteran: Boltgun
. Veteran: Plasma pistol, Power sword

  • Flyer +
    Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 251pts]: Auspex Array, Hurricane bolter, Twin assault cannon
    . 2x Stormstrike Missile Launchers: 2x Stormstrike missile launcher
    Corvus Blackstar [12 PL, 245pts]: Auspex Array, Hurricane bolter, Twin lascannon
    . 2x Blackstar Rocket Launchers: 2x Blackstar Rocket Launcher

++ Total: [61 PL, 1000pts] ++

I know, it is hateful to share long lists through the Gitter chat because on mobile it is a pain... but that is my list atm
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 21:27
drop one of the blackstars and just use a teleport strat
use the extra points for an intercessor kill team and an HQ, get a full useful battalion
spend 1 cp for an extra relic, give the chaplain the beacon and the second HQ the tome
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:29
I don't have any Intercessors, but I could build a third "normal" marine Kill Team
what should I put in it??
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 21:30
Intercessors LOL
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:30
Ha.HA.Ha. :tongue:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 21:31
Oh SURE @WindstormSCR passes out advice for the DW, but not even a comment on Pask or Basi/Manti LOLOLOLOL
(Sadly I know the real answer is "playtest both, see what happens")
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:31
@CrusherJoe :wink:
you got it
I reckon I've got about two, maybe three games between now and the tournament
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
May 17 2018 21:32
@CrusherJoe really depends on how you think you can deal with heavy armor skew lists
@FarseerVeraenthis depends on your local meta/what you expect to fight
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 21:32
So...to make Pask rock requires....just taking him in my list.
No strats, no nothing. He's complete and self-sufficient.
A basi and manti require a good 4 CP to get up to Pask levels of accuracy
But have the potential to do a LOT more damage to high T targets
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
May 17 2018 21:36
@CrusherJoe i was actually rhinking about suggesting DW to try to fix the flesh mountain problem
was listening to TLW this morning and i kinda liked the list idea kenny suggested
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:43
you mean I'm supposed to play enough games against different opponents to know what the local meta actually is...??
oops...
for me, tournaments are good way to actually play some games
dropping the corvus, taking a libby, and a third plain squad of vanilla marines, gives me enough for a HB Razorback with a storm bolter --> 999pts
and a billion more CP's
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
May 17 2018 21:48
and more painting
:sleepy:
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
May 17 2018 21:57
So using https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/ with a Leman Russ as the target...Pask actually does more damage, using only his built in Order (which would probably be higher because there's no way to account for "Pound Them To Dust" with their tools)
Granted it's 9.667 damage vs. 8.565