These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

5th
Jul 2018
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jul 05 2018 00:36
Also, Happy 4th all. To the UK people here:
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Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jul 05 2018 00:47
Are Doritos on 60s or 70s?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jul 05 2018 00:52
let me check
might be 80
yep, 80mm
and today I am officially done with 30k until my knight house is complete, then I'll use them since they don't require any special shit
having armiger talons as troops in 30k is going to make knight houses much scarier than they were
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jul 05 2018 01:08
So Doritos and levs are the same
Crap
K
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Jul 05 2018 01:12
that reminds me, when I get ironblasters I'll have to get the rounds for them too
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 10:42
Is there some form of catalog “hard limit” that starts causing device issues?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jul 05 2018 11:50
Hh legions astartes level
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:41
@Kohato What does 'HH legions Astartes Level' mean?
@Kohato Something like a 5, nearly 6mb catalog file?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:42
yup
so, 8th Ed CAT's are all well below 2Mb (apart from Astra Mil)
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:47
7th Ed CAT's that caused problems were as big as 3Mb
Legion Astartes is nearly 6mb
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:49
Do we have any idea if the move to split out stuff into 'libraries' for the next battlescribe app release will resolve any of that issue for mobile?
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:49
my understanding is that when the battlescribe app opens it "unpacks" the CAT into "Memory" - if the CAT starts out at 6Mb and then unpacks to (goodness knows what) you run out of processing power to be able to manage the data and run the app and the rest of the device
well, like I say, in 7th we had some performance issues when the CAT's got about 3mb, but with the 8th Ed CAT's all below 2Mb there have been exactly 0 reported performance problems so far
so if the CAT's are split out and shrunk further I can't imagine that being a problem
Although, probably if we have too many libraries referenced at the same time and the combined size of the libraries exceeed the capabilities of the device then we will run into problems
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:52
You're still dealing with the same amount of data ... potentially. It's just now in multiple libraries.
I just noticed that I was seeing multi-second delays when selecting units to add to a roster.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:52
which CAT?
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:53
It's in AoS catalogs right now. So I was trying to figure out if there was some kind of limit that I was hitting up against.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:53
(and, obviously if I'm talking rubbish, feel free to set me straight :smile: )
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:53
But the issue is only on Mobile, so I'm not sure if it's a catalog issue ... or an App issue for iOS.
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 13:54
oh wow, yeah, the file sizes seem to be really tiny
so I have reached (or possibly exceeded) the limits of my knowledge
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 13:55
What I noticed was that in the really small catalogs (e.g. Brayherd) the selection is nearly instant.
In the larger catalogs (like Khorne) i'm looking at multi-second time-outs waiting for the selection to take.
I recall there being some level of documentation regarding “selecting ‘shared’ checkboxes” But can’t manage to track it down ... :frowning:
Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 14:01
hmmm... yeah, the "shared" checkbox came along a while ago, my understanding was that it should always be checked unless there was a good reason not to
although, I was under the impression that it was a non-issue with the latest versions of the app
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 14:02

Yeah, that was my recollection as well. Ran into an issue on validation where I had to uncheck it to make a validation work properly.

When a larger catalog is added as a child force to the smaller catalog the smaller catalog now moves to multi-second select times.

Simon Porter
@FarseerVeraenthis
Jul 05 2018 14:07
yeah, that doesn't feel right
complex validation can sometimes cause trouble, but that normally goes hand-in-hand with large CAT's and the AoS ones are teeny
tekton
@tekton
Jul 05 2018 14:16
@FarseerVeraenthis there are some older reports for people on Kindle Fire (and similar gen 1 tablets) when selecting psychic abilities in 1k sons and GK- there’s so many units that have it the device starts to do weird things, but on more modern stuff the performance is fine
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jul 05 2018 14:17

If I may chime in:

The amount of processing power BattleScribe eats when changing (add, remove etc.) selections is impacted by the number of constraints and modifiers it has to (re)calculate.

It's naturally associated with the size of the catalogue, as it's on the other hand a result of the amount of entries it contains.
But it [the load] might be "superficially" increased if there are many and/or complicated constraints.
You can hang BattleScribe with just one-two entries that have some crazy constraints :D
So, when a roster uses more than one catalogue, it'll have to check constraints from those other catalogues as well, no matter from which one was the selection made.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 14:23
@amis92 So ... for shared entries is that being calculated listwide?
Is the constraints a whole catalog issue, or a unit issue?
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jul 05 2018 14:26
I can't say exactly how BattleScribe handles everything as I don't have it's source code, but from some private conversations with Jon, the engine that validates the rosters (constraints etc.) isn't really optimized. With few exceptions, it mostly re-checks everything all loaded catalogues contain.
If you think it's nothing special (the constraint), maybe it's worth raising as a bug and have Jon look at possibly fixing it.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 14:29
It's more that it's performance issues, that make the user experience subjectively poorer as we more fully flesh out and update catalogs.
So the more features we add from a use/validation perspective to make it more useful to the users, the worse the subjective performance when creating the roster.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jul 05 2018 14:30
Well, you know, it's a paid (or ad-supported) product, so users might not be happy with bad performance. He probably takes that into account :)

So the more features we add from a use/validation perspective to make it more useful to the users, the worse the subjective performance when creating the roster.

Yeah.

OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 14:32
At a certain point for mobile it may be easier to not use Battlescribe or choose an alternate list making product ... which means a loss of users for @Jonskichov ... and as a catalog editor, I'm not entirely happy with that potential. I want folks using the catalogs ... instead of the alternatives.
Amadeusz Sadowski
@amis92
Jul 05 2018 14:36
Chicken egg problem? I think if you have a reproducible setup, ping Jon/raise an issue. Performance should be optimized at some point, otherwise we get stuck with leaving out some constraints, implicating a degradation of UX quality.
Pen and paper don't have validation. It's (arguably) the most important aspect of BattleScribe.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 14:39
@amis92 Yeah, from an AoS perspective there is an minimally viable product in the www.warscrollbuilder.com website and Azyr app. Something that doesn't exist so much on the 40K side. (though they have issues currently).
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Jul 05 2018 15:04
@OftKilted there is Quartermaster - but that’s iOS only
That’s what 30k players have been abandoning BS for because of aforementioned issues
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jul 05 2018 15:13
40k also has a scrollbuilder counterpart
but it's just as useless as scrollbuilder.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Jul 05 2018 15:26
@Kohato Yeah... the AoS version is ... better than it used to be. And the website dev has been pretty active overall ... so it’s not horrible.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jul 05 2018 20:28
Well Kill Team looks like it'll be interesting.
tekton
@tekton
Jul 05 2018 20:47
Board size made me a little sad, but it’s closer to average coffee table size and all...going to put a 1” gutter on either side of my AdMech board to use it as a killteam board now :P
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Jul 05 2018 23:18
I'm just happy crons are in :)
I can play it without buying models
tekton
@tekton
Jul 05 2018 23:32
Yay! Grey Knights are too, which I’m surprised at...
tekton
@tekton
Jul 05 2018 23:38
Is anyone already planning, or has it been made, for a BattleScribe implementation for the new KillTeam?
((On phone app, or I would have checked already))