These are chat archives for BSData/wh40k

10th
Oct 2018
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 06:45
Ah, so just now seeing this discussion about the Lone Wolf.
I've got a very simple answer for it: NOPE.
That unit doesn't exist any more, and it's the same situation as the Stim Injector. Look, it's my datafile, and at some time you have to draw a hard line -- and this is it.
There's really no room for discussion about it -- the unit/model/whatever was replaced by a Strat. End of story. No more discussion is needed.
If you want a "Lone Wolf", take a Great Company Champion.
Price Van-Saint
@sk_Father_Price_twitter
Oct 10 2018 12:06

@Mad-Spy cheers ... used to seeing the Dynastic Heirlooms trait in Necrons and thought I'd missed something in space marines ..

the good thing is it doesn't throw any errors either if you take too many relics .. it only errors out on duplicate relics

Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 12:07
I reopened the appspot reference bug so it’s easier to find/reference - I wish we could pin it or something
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Oct 10 2018 12:24
seems to be doing it a lot lately, but for some reason a few repos stay up
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 12:24
Yeah that’s why I reopened it
Because even the guard FB pages are bitching about it
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2018 12:36
Not that anyone actually checks github to look at reference issues. They just complain. :smile:
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:14
I wish reddit had 3 stickies so we could use one for that.
Maybe a sidebar note ... as if people look at that.
Iain Launchbury
@Mad-Spy
Oct 10 2018 15:16
Given they already ignore the "don't post missing/broken data posts here" in the stickies, I doubt it will help much.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:24
As for lone wolf - I wholly disagree with that. We have ambiguous things in until they are cleared up by GW. This has not changed and shouldn't be a one-off. It should be marked [INDEX] and left in place.
We want to move toward homogeneity with the cats, not unique rulings.
Alex Baur
@acebaur
Oct 10 2018 15:26
If there is an index entry for it then it has to exist
It's the same thing with company vet bikers or chaplain bikers
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 15:27
exactly
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:27
The reasoning for it to not exist is a strat was introduced that has the same name. However the strat has nothing to do with the supposedly removed entry
Stims is very different in that it did what the wargear used to do
and we still left it in until clarified.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 15:27
@CrusherJoe I love you bro but we’re going to have to overrule you here
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:27
The precedent has been set. How do you get a Lone Wolf? You use the strat. It's the same thing as the Stim Injector, but the fact that it's a unit is causing confusion where there should be none. The only difference is the SI is wargear, the LW is a model. They only difference is where it is in the codex it is. Wargear is a thing you pay points for an (damn well better) have a model representing it. A unit model is the same thing.
You're letting details baffle and confuse you when the precedent and logical train of thought is very simple.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:29
Wargear does not need a model representing it.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:29
OMG oh yes it does
If you have WYSIWYG requirements
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:30
How do you represent Stim Injectors?
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:30
And if you don't, you should
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:30
Or how do you represent a EWO
is there a bit labled Stim Injector or EWO?
The answer is no, there is not
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:30
Okay, sure
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:30
If the wargear has relevent bits, yes - if it does not, it isn't needed.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:30
That doesn't really change the base argument though
The question is: "How do I get a Lone Wolf now in the codex?" The answer is, you use the strat. The strat replaces the unit entry.
Look I'm not crazy about it myself, but it is what it is.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:31
The argument is - the datasheet for the unit was replaced by a strategem. The counter is that the strategem, while having the same name, has nothing to do with the original datasheet.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:32
So I suppose you should be able to replace SI strat with wargear?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:32
The precedent for a stratagem replacing wargear predicates that the stratagem does what the wargear did.
No, it was ruled by GW that it replaced.
This was not.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:33
Probably because GW thought, "We've already covered this situation..."
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:33
Seems a bit of a leap to go from replacing a 10pt wargear to an entire unit that takes up a certain Force Org Chart slot.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:33
Not really.
If they wanted Lone Wolves to be a bespoke unit they wouldn't have removed it and replaced it with a strat.
Someone please explain to me why this concept is so hard to grasp?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:35
We've tried.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:35
So basically we're all pushing opinions?
And I fucking knew that goddamned LW was going to be a problem with some cheesehead out there crying about it. Ugh.
Originally I just hid the entry because I thought this bullshit would come up. I think I deleted it after a couple of revisions, though.
CrusherJoe @CrusherJoe checks the current version
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:38
Yeah, deleted. Dang it. I guess I was just expecting too much.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:38
@CrusherJoe it comes back to us not being the arbiter of the rules, just following RAW
which with GW means a tangled mess of things not clarified because they can't be fucked
it affects every cat and is why we brought back tags for index things, as a big red flag for people to say "look at ME, discuss ME"
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Oct 10 2018 15:39
if they just clarify the DC chart, we wouldnt have this mess or several others
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:40
Personally I'd love nothing more than to apply a harder opinion to several such problems, but after sufficient explanations about why I've held back on it
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:41
Where are these tags?
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:42
the ones we add to unit names. [Index]
or to wargear entries where necessary
CloverFox
@CloverFox
Oct 10 2018 15:43
Just adding my voice, I agree with Joe, i don't see the difference between wargear and a unit entry, the response for stim injectors was basicly "its a strat now, stop using the old one", the fact the "old one" is a datasheet shouldn't matter imo
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 15:44
@CloverFox sure. But the very fact that were even having this conversation and it’s ambiguous indicates we need to support both options
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:45
From a certain point of view, @alphalas . :)
I think the intent is clear.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 15:46
@CrusherJoe then again from a certain point of view before the big FAQ 1 inch charges from 12 inches up was legal. Obviously wasn’t intended; but it was a thing.
The intent was that no that’s totally not a thing. But it was
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:46
Don't misunderstand me -- I understand the position
I just disagree with it due to precedent.
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 15:46
When we don’t interpret intent at all.
Because GW has already proven our interpretations of intent are absolutely wrong at times.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:47
It's a shitty thing to have to support sometimes, but until it's expressly ruled, it needs to be supported. Like it or not - a large portion of the playerbase has and does use BS as the rules arbiter (This is bad and they should feel bad for doing so). GW has a very odd idea of what they want to accomplish sometimes. I'm hopeing for a couple of clarifications/changes with CA. Maybe Lone Wolves will be among them
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:48
And I would be 100% in agreement with that if it weren't for the fact of precedence.
In other words, it's not a decision I make in a vacuum
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:48
And Joe - for the record, I think you're correct. It seems they wanted to eliminate an Elite slot for some inane reason. But it's also not been ruled that way and the only precedent we have is that wargear was replaced one time. We've never had it happen for a whole unit.
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:49
For real though the LW was replaced by the Great Company Champ
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:49
Was the same way for Deathmarks back when Necrondex came out.
Though that was a print mistake and not a change
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:50
As part of GW's ongoing campaign to neuter, homogenize, pablumize and remove any hint of actual flavor from marine armies
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:50
It's just odd that they'd replace one unit with another with an entirely different name, different abilities, and in a different force org slot.
That's why it is hard for me to take it at face value.
that the GCC is the replacement.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:51
Well, I've said my bit, you do you. We've got our own ambiguity on our rules clashing here. Author will vs our doctrines on option support
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:52
Oh I will comply with doctrine
I will do it under protest, but I will do it. :smile:
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:53
you mean like I did with the people wanting to take banners on custodes units because index?
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 15:53
Could always mark the unit: "Fuck it, take what you want".
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:53
even though it was pants on head derp?
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Oct 10 2018 15:56
those people are strictly wrong though, windstorm, due to the DC saying to use the codex datasheet
Joe Beddoe
@CrusherJoe
Oct 10 2018 15:56
The original version of that was "Just take whatever you cheating fucks. I give up."
I'm kinda proud of myself for self-censoring.
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 15:59
@GenWilhelm the problem was the banner was in the index wargear block. however it has since been FAQ'd and removed with prejudice
Will Pattison
@GenWilhelm
Oct 10 2018 16:01
right, but the DC applies to models, not to units. so the banner guy uses the bannerguy datasheet, and the other guys use the otherguy datasheet. none of them have wargear that isnt on their codex datasheet, and all is well
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2018 18:20
@kohato ... The Dark Angels have ALWAYS been heretical.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 19:34
Are you crazy? Shhhhh
You'll wake the German.
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2018 20:51
@Kohato Oh ... yeah ... ohh ... sorry!
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 20:55
@Thairne HERESY!
I intentionally poke the bear ;)
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2018 20:59
@alphalas See if I send you any more cool Pokémon Presents ... meh.
:wink:
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 21:00
Lol yeah I’ve been busy past couple weeks; between starting a new job today and NYCC this past weekend and Baltimore CC last weekend I’ve been occupied lol
OftKilted
@OftKilted
Oct 10 2018 21:01
What You were in Baltimore last weekend!
That's a hop-skip and a jump from where I live.
Comparatively speaking of course.
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 22:30
Grats on the job yo
WindstormSCR
@WindstormSCR
Oct 10 2018 22:41
@oftkilted same here, I offered lunch but he was busy
we should all try and meet sometime
where are you at?
Jon Kissinger
@alphalas
Oct 10 2018 22:45
Yeah I’m on lunch right now; what originally was going to just be me finishing my online training today turned into a full 8hr shift
I can’t complain though; the people in my deli are cool as shit
teage-like-league
@teage-like-league
Oct 10 2018 23:33
hey guys, popping in to see if I can help fix the issues with the catagories and the new Beta version of BS
Earl Bishop
@DrTobogganMD
Oct 10 2018 23:58
There's issues with categories in beta BS?