These are chat archives for Sensorica/valuenetwork

27th
Jan 2016
Radu Seserman
@Radu62s
Jan 27 2016 04:45
Hello everyone and thank you for the welcome. I am not at home during the day so you'll not hear much from me. I will read your discussions and try to learn from them. After reading some of your post I realized I have to install an Ubuntu VM - that is my next step.
Can you tell me what database do you use for NRP?
Radu Seserman
@Radu62s
Jan 27 2016 05:02
@bhaugen @fosterlynn I program in PICK Basic at work and v. little .net & SQL
Radu Seserman
@Radu62s
Jan 27 2016 05:09
@bhaugen I program in PICK Basic at work and v. little .net & SQL
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 11:06

@Radu62s

I have to install an Ubuntu VM - that is my next step.
Can you tell me what database do you use for NRP?

@christroutner has some great instructions for how to install NRP on a Windows box. I'll go look for them.
For testing, we use Sqlite. For production, PostgreSql.
Radu Seserman
@Radu62s
Jan 27 2016 12:21
@bhaugen Thank you I found something: here
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 13:28
@Radu62s - that's it! Thanks, saved me some work.
I haven't heard about PICK Basic for a long time. What kinds of apps, systems, whatever?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 13:39
P.S. everybody, one of the improvements the NRP software really needs is a single-click installer.
One for development, maybe another for production, or maybe one will work for both.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 15:06
That environment is django v1.8, while NRP is still on 1.4, but I think it's possible to fork one of their environments.
Another possibility is https://sandstorm.io/
They've offered to help adapt a project to their environment.
I'm sure other ways exist to get this to happen, e.g. Dockers.
A docker would be installable in a lot of hosting environments.
Thierry Marianne created this one for development: https://github.com/Sensorica/valuenetwork/blob/master/Dockerfile
Doesn't quite work, and I should get back to try it again and see if I can figure out why, but haven't done it yet.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 16:00

P.S. everybody, one of the improvements the NRP software really needs is a single-click installer.

That would be awesome, but I don't know Django or Docker at all. It'd be great if we could find someone willing to take this on.

I've thought about creating a snapshot of a Droplet on Digital Ocean and sharing it. People who create server Droplets can then copy the image with an already setup and installed software.

Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 17:16
@bhaugen @fosterlynn can the present NRP be used to "manage" projects and tasks? Such as creating projects and tasks… I know I should know the answer to this.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 17:59
@mfrangos yes. But it works differently than what people are used to, so they gravitate toward something they already know rather than help develop the project management features.
We want to develop project coordination features, but have not had anybody who wanted to work with us on them yet.
Back on the one-click deployment, here is a Django project with an example of how to do it, at least for deployment:
Their dev environment procedure is a lot better than ours, too.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:01
Ok… because Frederic suggested we add those into the survey under question 3, where the user checks off the level of understanding they have of the feature. I framed the additions in a very basic way. If you could go in there and take a look, that would be great.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:01
I'll take a look.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:03
thanks
in terms of project coordination and management features, what kind of effort are we looking at? It’s true we haven’t had much of a discussion about this. Perhaps we should soon. Even if there are no resources to develop this now, it should be considered so that there is room to implement this in a less painful way in the future.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:06
It will require a feedback loop with people who are have projects to coordinate. That's the hard part.
Most of the software development would be building off existing features (like notifications).
Lotta nice UI problems for you guys, though.
The back end work is pretty simple.
I am not sure I did right in your survey document. I just changed some wording, and then noticed it is in suggestion mode.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:08
Now that I’m working on the project page, these things are good to consider.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:09
I think project management needs both a graphical overview and a conversational (mobile-friendly) UI.
We tried for the graphical overview a few times, with different JS-graphics helpers, and mostly failed.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:09
can you give me an example?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:10
Of which?
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:10
i am curious as to what this looks like. the graphical overview
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:11
People want two overviews that I have heard about: gantt chart and Trello-like.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:11
ah
ok. now i understand
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:11
Lynn did a Trello-like UI for Dhen, one of our other networks, but I don't think it would be usable for Sensorica. Might be, with some rethinking of how Sensorica does things.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:12
it’s useful to drag and drop tasks into different “boxes” or stages of development
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:12
Lynn is looking for an example of the DHen board.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:12
i know that a drag and drop feature is time consuming to do on the front-end
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:14
Stages of development works for a work order generated from workflow recipe, but not for one generated from a manufacturing or assembly recipe.
What some people call "project" for project management maps more directly to "work order" in NRP.
Project in Sensorica (and in Sensorica's NRP instance) is this much bigger and more comprehensive thing.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:15
interesting. well, there must be a way of simplifying
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:15
Like Breathign Games is a project.
Breathing Games has many work orders, which somebody else might call projects.
This goes back to the structure of work document I posted here earlier.
Some of this is about terminology.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:16
i wonder if each step in a recipe can be refactored as a line that one could “check off"
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:16
SOme of it is about structure.
If it's a workflow, yes.
Those are linear step-wise flows.
An assembly sequence is different: it can have many inputs,, each of which has its own inputs, and those can also have their own inputs.
So it is necessarily not so simple.
Frederic will know what I mean.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:20
ok… this could lead to some interesting discussions and brainstorming sesssions.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:20
Back to your survey for a minute, @mfrangos - I tried to add some things, but couldn't match the formatting. And it's lunch time.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:21
there is also another challenge: how do we render complicated terminology, concepts, actions into simple to understand language for those who are new or just getting acquainted with OVN?
but we can leave that until another day.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:21
So I'll come back later and maybe do some chatting in the survey doc.
There's necessary complexity and unnecessary complexity.
Necessary complexity needs to be learned.
COuld be gentle ways to get people into it.
Sometimes you can come up with a great breakthrough, some metaphor that condenses some complexity into some graspable essence.
But think about learning math.
Sometimes you just gotta learn things.
Manufacturing is like that.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:24
dhen-board-092015.png
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:24
Ah, there's the Dhen board...
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:24
hey it worked!
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:24
Click to embiggen
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:24
I told Tibi he could turn it into a google survey because the open source tool I found isn’t free after all.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:25
It's ok, I'm not sure why it did not respond when I tried to add items.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:25
i think it did
i saw edits you made
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:25
Will come back after lunch and try again.
I edited some words, couldnt add an item.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:26

I think project management needs both a graphical overview and a conversational (mobile-friendly) UI.

See my note in the Roles email thread about a 'project communicator'. This is why I think it would be a good idea to implement a chat program like Gitter on a per-project basis in the UI.

Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:26
hmmm. should i tell him to hold off?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:26
tell who to hold off?
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:26
yes, i think we would need to do something like that. i would also like to take a look at what #slack has done (only for ideas not for implementation).
Tibi asked if I wanted him to turn the survey into a google form
the survey tool i found wasn’t free
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:27
Mattermost is a slack and gitter sorta thing that is open source and embeddable.
Slack itself was a knockoff from an earlier open source app.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:27
personally i like bitter. but it’s light
doesn’t surprise me
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:28
bitter? that's the one I want
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:28
better :)
i mean bitter!
gitter
argh
auto correct
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:28
Right, I knew what you meant, but bitter was funnier
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:29
:)
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:29

yes, i think we would need to do something like that. i would also like to take a look at what #slack has done (only for ideas not for implementation).

For now @mfrangos , why don't you just put in a tab for a chat screen and figure out the navigation. We can figure out exactly what platform is best to implement later. It'll have to be something with an API or iframe that we can embed into our app.

I'm talking about in regards to a wire frame.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:29
yes, i have that component in there already.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:29
The thing with process coordination is that the process itself needs to be part of the conversation, like a bot.
Just a sec, I'll find some examples.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:31
@bhaugen I'm thinking that's where an integrated Twitter feed on a per-project basis would really shine. We can have the NRP send out process updates to the feed in an automated way.
We could do the same thing with just about any chat program too.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:33
Yep. We could do exactly the same thing with a twitter feed.
Or Slack, or Gitter, or anything.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:35
Co-Creating A Common Data Language.png
The blue cloud is the process as a bot.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:37
So configure automatic reminders?
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:40
the open source template we are using has a timeline: https://almsaeedstudio.com/themes/AdminLTE/pages/UI/timeline.html
i’m wondering if we could use something like that as a base and modify it
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:41
Back to overviews for a minute, let's see if I can drop this picture in here:
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:41
Very cool
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:41
process-oriented flow
If people can understand that diagram, they can understand NRP.
It is, at heart, flows of resources that travel through input-process-output links.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:43
ok… i have trouble with the diagram :)
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:43
What part is the most troublesome?
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:43
because although it’s visually laid out, the boxes have text in them. and the words are abstract notions to me at this point of my understanding
it’s me, it’s not the diagram
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:44
It's between you and the diagram.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:44
also it’s static
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:44
we should do this diagram as an example, with instances...
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:44
if it were more visual and could move...
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:44
Yeah,, I'd love to do an animated version.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:44
animated..... :)
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:44
I think Lynn is right for a first step, a version with example objects that are not so abstract,
Lynn, do we have such a version anywhere?
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:45
but i missed what we you are trying to accomplish with that diagram, bob
hmmm thinking
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:45
if we had a timeline and found a way to reflect the different components (input type, process, output event, etc.) then we could potentially turn any linear timeline into a visualisation
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:46
I'll do an example with a salsa recipe.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:46
ok - but there are 1:m
oops
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:46
  • i meant if each entry on the timeline was identified as a specific component
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:46
there are 1:m and m:m relationships there
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:47
ok, Lynn, I don't understand that one...
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:47
maria, on the timeline, the example i saw was more of chat and notifications, is that where you are going?
bob, there might be 1 commitment with many events for example
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:47
yes
I like where Maria is going with specific components
I think a food recipe would do that,
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:48
yes but rightnow the timeline is maybe too limited. i like the structure and layout (the icon on the left identifies whether it’s a photo, video or comment) but we could do something much more useful with this type of layout.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:48
and make sense to most people.
Was there a link to the timeline you are talking about?
I missed it.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:48
what if we had different codes or visuals for each type of box in the gantt chart
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:48
sorry.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:49
Ok, sorry, got it now.
Vertical timeline.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:50
yes
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:50
Of a conversation.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:50
originally, i had thought about an interactive, horizontal timeline. but that’s too crazy
this would work, i think
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:50
sorry to be behind, but waht is the use case we are talking about? or multiple ones?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:51
We are talking in general about how to make the complexity of NRP understandable
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:51
to create a visualisation (like a gantt) but linearly
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:51
whoa
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:51
and in particular, about project management
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:51
visualization of the work?
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:51
and for those who want the visualisation, maybe we can add fucntionality that would turn the visual timeline into a gantt chart
yes, of the work
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:51
where what most people mean by project is not like a Sensorica project, but like an NRP work order
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:52
yes, that would be a good scope for this visualisation
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:52
yes
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 27 2016 18:52
@mfrangos Have you read the slidedecks on NRP? They go through that flow diagram that bob posted in great detail. They explain every aspect of it.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:52
like multiple processes that are connected to create one or more items
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:52
i must admit i haven’t in a while
and i only skimmed through them
i will take a closer look
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:52
Did the slide deck have an example with components? I relook myself.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:53
the slide decks might be a hard slog, but they have a lot of concepts, i think it would be worth it :)
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:53
i need to jump off now but will join back later this afternoon
i will take a look :) i need to go through the pain
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:53
In terms of the lovely AdminLTE vertical timeline, think about how to present the plan (what was supposed to happen)
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 27 2016 18:53
sorry!
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:53
of understanding this stuff
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:53
as well as the reality (what did happen)
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:54
ahhh
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:54
and re the slides, I will find or make some examples that I think might fit into this conversaion
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:54
planning versus result
ok
sounds good
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 27 2016 18:54
so yeah, let's break and come back later.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 18:54
k
Salsa recipe-plan-reality
How would you turn that into a timeline?
The recipe probably doesn't fit a timeline,
but the plan and reality do.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 27 2016 20:48
I’ll give it some thinking… but i think i can find a way