These are chat archives for Sensorica/valuenetwork

29th
Jan 2016
Radu Seserman
@Radu62s
Jan 29 2016 03:57
You ladies and gentlemen are an a mission! Congratulations! I am impressed with the effort you dedicate to this project. I must admit, I will be a weekend warrior (and some evenings though I never know when I get home). With your energy you are really motivating me.
@bhaugen You are right, I should have no problem grasping the NRP. I need to do some homework (study NRP tutorial) before I start commenting. Though, if there are known accounting problems or issues you can ask me, my experience may give you some idea. @fosterlynn I will attempt to install Ubuntu VM this weekend and then I will need some help to install your application. Then I can do testing, if you need, and maybe some backend database programming. I will let you know as I get more familiar with your work. In the mean time, if there is any unfilled need just let me know to see what I can do about it.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 11:14
@Radu62s are you installing on Windows?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 12:33
@Radu62s one thing you might want to study is the REA accounting model. It is different from the conventional debit-credit double-entry model.
Much simpler, but you can derive DEB from REA.
Lots more than you want to know here: https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Links
Bill McCarthy's original paper is a decent place to start: https://www.msu.edu/user/mccarth4/McCarthy.pdf
Peer-reviewed, and based on that and other REA work, Bill became a VP of the American Accounting Association (might have the name of the org wrong, but something like that...)
The paper is pretty dense, but it gives you the bonafides. As in, we are not actually crazy. Here's a simpler version:
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 12:38
Anyway, that's the model we use in NRP.
Here's our overview of the model: https://github.com/valnet/valuenetwork/wiki/Concepts
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 13:57
@Radu62s don't worry, people can contribute what they can. Bob and I are lucky to be able to live on social security now, and we have lots of time. We both had day jobs most of our lives, and families, so we understand! So weekend warrior is great, really! Both Chris and Maria are very part time on this project actually, with jobs and other commitments in their lives. And Bob and I are in support roles, so we spend only the time needed to support others. So the UI/UX project is moving basically as fast as Maria and Chris set the pace. Which is working well.
The original NRP (if you want to work on that) proceeds at a variable pace depending on priorities and time. Right now I'm focused on re-writing the Exchange portion of the NRP, and Bob is more focused on supporting the UI/UX project. And we do some support for the local herbal network that uses NRP and is active right now.
Once you have done the homework you want to, we can figure it out together.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 14:29
P.S. If you find that you would like a walkthrough of anything, I'd be happy to do that over a google hangout or jitsi.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 29 2016 14:30
you guys are awesome!
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 29 2016 21:42
I have a stupid question: what is the relationship between a contribution and an exchange?
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 21:59
OK: contribution vs exchange. Hopefully this makes sense. So there are Exchanges and Processes. And there are Economic Events, some of which are part of an Exchange and some of which are part of a Process and some of which are stand along (no process and no exchange). Some Economic Events are contributions. To Sensorica being a contribution means that it is a candidate for distribution through a value equation.
So some Economic Events are contributions and some are not. Only some types of Economic Events even can be contributions: Work, Payments, Cash Contributions, Material Contributions, maybe others but I would have to think.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 22:06
We keep a flag on Economic Event called is_contribution, and use it as a flag when we collect Economic Events to figure out Distributions. We used to assume all of the above types of Economic Events were contributions. But Fabio had a use case where some people had gotten grants and therefore were exempting themselves from distributions because they were already getting paid. So we exposed the flag on Work events so people could un-check it if this was their situation. In my current re-work of Exchanges, this will be configurable for all types of Economic Events that are part of Exchanges.
oops - stand alone up there, not stand along
So, if any of this is not clear, ask!
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 22:10
Chris's test API deployment now has an Economic Events List: http://198.199.118.209:8000/api/economic-events/
You can see the is_contribution flag there.
When he gets the new Contributions list deployed, that one will have only is_contribution=true
with more query parameters for selecting subsets.
I'll add as many selections as you guys want.
As well as any other selections on anything else.
So @mfrangos back to your question of killing two birds with one stone, you guys should be able to massage all the data lots of different ways.
My current priority on NRP work is to support you and Chris on the UI/UX work and help Lynn on her rework as much as she wants.
So as far as putting a lot of work into the old UI, I'd rather work on the new.
But sometimes practicality will rule if they need something for operations or accounting.
So I am not deathly opposed to improvements in the current UI. But we shd weigh the pluses and minuses and see how soon you guys can get something deployable on the Sensorica site.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 22:16
Lynn, if I am just confusing the situation more, please shoot me.
Lynn asks me if I am sure Tibi has a data problem. I am not assuming that. I left that one for Lynn.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 22:17
We'll figure it out.
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 29 2016 22:18
@fosterlynn Thanks for the detailed info about exchanges. I was curious for 2 reasons: 1. To determine if it exhanges needed to be in the top level nav. It looks like it does. In my mock-up I have contributions on the main menu but I think I should swap this out with Exchanges. This is, of course, subject to change and it will. But I wanted to get as close to proposing a good top level nav as possible.
  1. For future reference when we start to untangle all this stuff :)
That was supposed to be numbered as “2"
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 22:19
gitter likes to start over at 1. haha
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 22:20
I get clobbered by that gitter numbering problem all the time.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 22:20
yeah exchanges have to be at the top somewhere
there are bunches of different kinds of exchanges, that fit into different use cases in the system, but I think we will need to figure all that out later after I'm done
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 29 2016 22:23
Back to the data issue. I forwarded the email to Lynn, Bob and Chris. I am confused though. Would this involve UX work if we were to implement the changes to the present NRP?
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 22:24
for what it is worth now, there are exchanges where stuff is dominantly coming into the network (cash contributions, material contributions, purchases, etc.), there are exchanges where stuff is dominantly going out of the system (like sales, etc.), and there are exchanges between agents internal to the network (like paying 1.50/hour into the printer maintenance fund when you use the 3d printer)
haven't seen your email yet Maria, will watch and then respond
(note on the exchanges, that exchange implies that something is being exchanged for something else - which is why i say "dominantly" above - for example sales, you are shipping something to a customer and the customer is paying for it - I am considering the shipment the dominant direction because that is the reason for the exchange, and the money is in reciprocity for the shipment)
Maria Frangos
@mfrangos
Jan 29 2016 22:34
OK.. so does this apply to a situation like this: Mrs. X wants to donate $1000 to Sensorica, so she needs to pick a place to where that money will be allocated (i.e. infrastructure, renovating, outreach, a specific project). That money is then used to make purchases in the specific category in which it was donated.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 29 2016 22:53
@bhaugen I just got the test server synced with the you latest changes. I'm going play around a bit with the API calls this weekend.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 22:54
Woohoo! I see contributions!
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 29 2016 22:58
I see that the projects[] array contains under People a blank array called affiliates[] now. Is this where People api URLs will get posted when people are affiliated with a project?
I also see an empty projects[] array contained in a Project/Agent Instance. That's a little confusing having a projects[] array inside of a project. Can you explain that to me?
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 23:01
I think these are fallouts of how I put some API lists together. I'll look at the code and see what is happening. It's confusing to me, too.
This is a bad sign when it's my code...
Might take me awhile to figure this out...but I will...
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 23:08
@mfrangos re. Mrs. X above: So hopefully this won't be too confusing. There is a type of Exchange called Cash Contribution, and there also is a type of event called Cash Contribution. The Cash Contribution event is contained by the Cash Contribution exchange. (Since there is nothing coming immediately in return for the Cash Contribution event, it could stand alone without the Exchange but in the system it is easier if everything related to resources that are just changing hands is part of an Exchange. Changing hands as opposed to adding value in a Process.)....
Mrs. X can make her Cash Contribution to a particular project if she likes.
Or she can make it to a more specifically earmarked account if she likes, even on created just for her contribution.
Or Mrs. X can make her Cash Contribution to a general project like Building Sensorica, and then it can be used for whatever Sensorica needs.
Or if Mrs. X purchases something for Sensorica, that can be a contribution for the amount of money she purchased it for.
Chris Troutner
@christroutner
Jan 29 2016 23:11
@bhaugen What I'm personally looking for is an array of affiliates in a list of Projects. For instance, this project page for the PV characterization has an array of projects[]. It would be great if it had an array called affiliates[] that contained the people associated with the project. Just like how this People page has an array called projects[] for each person showing what projects they are associated with.
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 23:13
@christroutner this happens often in gitter: we got two conversations being intermingled in the same room. I'm about to get into a down in the weeds code discussion while maria and lynn are discussing concepts.
I'm gonna see how to set up a sub-room for code chats...
don't go away.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 23:14
Continuing on Mrs. X: There are other types of events besides Cash Contribution that are related. These are Donation and Loan. Right now the system assumes that a Cash Contribution type of event is always a contribution (can be in a distribution). A Donation expects no return at all. A Loan expects to be repayed, irrespective of if there is ever a distribution or not.
In the future: All of this will be user configurable!
Bob Haugen
@bhaugen
Jan 29 2016 23:17
added Chris and Lynn.
Anybody else who wants in is welcome
but this will be down and dirty code talk
you have been warned
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 23:18
Ha that was a good idea
@mfrangos continuing with the general topic: The scenario Tibi was talking about in that earlier email thread was when some non-Sensorica project is using the lab, and agrees to pay Sensorice 5% of their sales for things they made in the lab. In that case how to record the 5% they paid into Sensorica.
So there is money coming in. And Sensorica needs to figure out how to record it: what type of Exchange, and then what type of Economic Event.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 23:23
This is a process of some analysis.
So: Is it a Cash Contribution? Not really, and especially it shouldn't be because those are considered contributions, so would be part of a value equation distribution.
Is it a Donation? Could be, that would work OK, but conceptually it really isn't a donation in my opinion.
Is it a Loan? No.
I think it is better thought of as a receipt of cash in return for Sensorica providing a service.
The service is use of the lab. The 5% of sales is one of perhaps several payments for use of the lab.
So if it were me, I would set this up as a Sale.
There is another scenario: what if the 5% is not from someone outside of Sensorica, but from a project inside Sensorica? In this case, it is not a Sale. These internal transfers of $ are handled through Distributions using a Value Equation.
Lynn Foster
@fosterlynn
Jan 29 2016 23:29
If a project makes something, and it is sold, say by an exchange firm which is part of the Sensorica network, then the exchange firm runs a distribution where the first bucket on the value equation gives 5% to Sensorica, and the rest goes to the project that made the item sold.
OK, probably way too much, I'll stop....