These are chat archives for Spring-Chobby/Chobby

7th
Jul 2016
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 02:04
Well, LUA seems fairly easy to learn
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 02:04
yes, lua is generally simple
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 02:04
Unfortunately I tried to write a program with command terminal symbols in it XP
So it looked like ! >print("hello")hello
I messed up xD
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 02:07
do you have lua installed?
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 02:09
I use ide
not command prompt/terminal
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 02:16
I also found IDE for my iPod so I can code late at night :D
Lol
For some reasone
You have to teach code everything
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 02:21
pretty much everything besides arithmetic and truefalse
Yay
I made a function
This language is a lot like C+
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 03:26
there is a point about performance. An idle chobby says that it is using 9% cpu. Spring just likes to have that cpu
although I hope the new springs start on a new core
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 03:38
i think there is very little point talking about performance by looking at the CPU usage at this point
not only is our interface code badly optimized, so is chili; but most importantly we haven't really disabled enough things in the engine
it's likely that a few major global disables will reduce 90% of the perfomance woes, and seeing as how spring is written, it shouldn't be too hard to introduce them
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 03:39
Is chobby going to be multithreded
?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 03:39
it's also unlikely to ever surpass SL/SWL but i don't care if it's 3% or 0.3%, as long as the number is very small
no, it's not
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 03:40
:o
is it possible to even make a lobby multithreaded compatible?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 03:41
no
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 03:41
why?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 03:41
because spring lua is single threaded
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:02
nota lobby is worth looking at
it does what it does well, except it does not do much
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:02
yes they used to have very good UI
but i haven't seen the new version, think it didn't run on linux
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:03
someone should have told Orf what the rectangles mean. As far as I'm aware most of the rectangles will be turned into controls
I just like to see them for development. It makes sure the control heiracy doesn't do weird stuff
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:03
yea
i thought it was obvious when i said this is just the layout design
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:05
he suggested main menu settings, what do you think?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:05
i'd rather not do that. even in original chobby i moved settings further away (under a dropdown in top right). they aren't key
and i also like that main menu is all about playing
while tabs are about social, settings & downloads
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:25
i moved exit to the top right, but it's currently in a dropdown
the whole UI is placeholder, i mostly used bits and pieces from existing chobby code
but it allows to login/logout, exit and shows logged in user & connection status
i wouldn't display ping - maybe only on mouse over - but i would show whether we're connected or not
also added two placeholder tabs to get a view how things look like
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:31
recently?
when you make changes do you like to push them? or do you hold onto them?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:32
i pushed it
depends on whether i think it'll be a nuisance or if it's important for people to try it
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:33
hmm its not on the right
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:34
are you sure you pulled it?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:34
I mean it is not in the right in this window
the gitter one
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:34
i see it :o
13:28
gajop on master
don't update latency; bugfix (compare)
13:24
gajop on master
implement (WIP) my user status … (compare)
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:35
how does Component work?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:35
ideally we should get rid of Component and implement custom WH listeners that we might need
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:35
I've got PriorityPopup = Component:extends{}
self:super('init')
but PriorityPopup:ViewResize is never called
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:36
didn't implement it, it seems :(
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:37
ah so I should have just implemented it myself. I started but then found this
I'll leave it for now, its just a view resize
how do you destroy a class? Just forget about it and let the GC deal with it?
you don't destroy classes
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:38
why not?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:38
instances are destroyed (i think) but not classes
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:38
then I'm going to make a closure instead
that is what I meant
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:39
afaik it's just like chili, they get GCed
those things basically define whether the links are strong or not i think
and weak links should be auto-GCed
actually it's something i was meaning to use for listeners
at least for some type of listeners that are executed only once (such as the login stuff)
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:40
yea because listeners are never going to get forgotten
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:41
i first want to investigate custom WH callins
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:42
why did you move exit?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:42
this is why I'm a lot more OK that we make things widgets and avoid using Component things
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:42
what is wrong with an ordinary straightforward menu?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:42
i thought we agreed to move it to the top right
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:42
I don't recall whether we did
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:42
i think it's in the way, especially in the small mode
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:42
I don't think I would have done so intentionally
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:43
for the wide one it's OK-ish
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:43
but its confusing for there to be a little button with functions in it
for login I'd have a little button below your player which says either "Login" or "Logout"
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:44
how about we make it a single button that opens a popup menu with Logout and Exit
hm
or that
intuitively I'd put exit in either top right, bottom left and top left (not for chobby)
but never in the middle of something
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:46
its a game menu though
they have different rules
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:47

i'd rather have it be
SinglePlayer
MultiPlayer

Chat
Settings
Downloads
Friends

Exit

GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:48
yea we can move Exit to the bottom
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:48
yep, that's all i ask
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:48
how many buttons are in main buttons?
at most 3?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:49
no idea
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:49
SP could have skirmish, quick start and campaign
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:50
searching for SP menu on google gave me this: http://media.indiedb.com/images/games/1/7/6372/screen00489.png :D
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:51
I told you smoth had something
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:51
knew about it, just didn't expect it
it's actually animated
the gundams would shoot at you
SP could also have replay
hmm replays..
maybe they should be in the tab panels
Load Game could also be in the SP menu
or it could be in part of the skirmish/battleroom if we feel starved for space
Missions too could be in the SP menu, if we think they're different from Campaign/Skirmish
and Tutorial/Learn to play..?
These are just ideas... I don't think this is something all games should do, and certainly not all of that
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:57
can you explain why something breaks?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 04:57
what's breaking?
i've noticed some errors when logging in/out
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 04:57
some sort of closure problem
in my last commit
to reproduce you click login
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 05:05
that's a fix - sorta
maybe doesn't work if you dispose it differently
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:06
that wasn't what was breaking before
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 05:06
i'd always get a stackoverflow
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:06
earlier it thought background was nil
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 05:08
battle list still doesn't work well when relogging but i've got to go now
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:09
you're doing logout?
[f=-000001] [liblobby] Error: [string "LuaUI/widgets/chobby/components/priority_po..."]:104: attempt to call method 'unregister' (a nil value)
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 05:13
No I won't be doing logout. My next task (in the evening) will be to make it easy to switch Spring/Uber servers, and do some cleanup in the liblobby
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:16
logout seems to exist though
I'm going to detect short screens and switch button sizes to be smaller
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 05:17
Yes, it works. I just won't be doing the UI work that we talked about, letting you do that
(Changing dropdown into single login/logout button and moving exit bottom left)
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:18
right
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 05:45
with exit at the very bottom should we also put back there?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:00
No, back is in a good place and relative to the menu items
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 06:08
I'll put my battle in the status panel
and there is something broken about its tab removal too
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:08
good
and less good :P
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:23
@gajop in #84 , do yo mean call the delayed function in the wrapper or the addmessage?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:23
nono
i mean you should make a new listener for OnChannelTopic
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:24
ahhhh
but now the wrapper stuff is useles no?
ah no
ok i'm goin to use the topic from the parmas
not the lobby call
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:41
that looks better
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:41
thx
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:42
i like to keep all data we receive in memory, in liblobby (wrapper)
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:42
so channel.topic = topic is fine?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:42

it's not completely useless, just not used in that concrete UI

^ this message wasn't sent it seems

Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:42
oh
ok
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 06:58
@gajop #88 is up
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 06:59
thanks
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:01
what about #75 ? is bad?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 07:02
i want it to solve #37 completely
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:02
ok
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 07:02
and i'm not sure how well you tested it, i have doubts about some things
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:02
but I don't know how to change the tab color or blink
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 07:03
i guess #37 isn't easy as you'll also need to do #68's 2nd part (with the numbers in it)
for blinking check chili demos
for tab color.. good luck ;P
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:04
so is posible to blink a tab?
everything's possible
;)
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:04
xD
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 07:05
keep in mind that these properties (alertness, numbers, and similar), should be done as methods of tab panel buttons
so we can change their alert status for chat, battle, downloads, friends, and similar
TurBoss @TurBoss goes to sleep a bit
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 07 2016 07:09
This message was deleted
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 09:50
you said some other time you wanted bitmaps for lobby UI stuff?
skinning or so
you could probably get forb on it, but i can also output crap like those zkl2 icons
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 09:52
yes i do but not yet, it's too early to begin work there
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 09:56
ok
fwiw my http widget was simple as a rock
i took the abma http widget, pointed it at a replay url, and added code to chop off the HTTP header and save the remainder into a file
the resulting file was a valid replay file that could be launched by spring
there was no extra error handling in the sense that it didn't even check if response was http 200
but it seems easy
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 09:59
alright
well ideally i'd still add http.lua to the engine :P
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:02
i think i can make a pretty solid case for that if socket is allowed, http should be allowed
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:03
obviously
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:03
but i don't know how to enable http myself so it sounds like making people do it
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:03
worth making an issue in chobby itself
it's filled with engine stuff
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:04
afaict http was disabled for security, but merely with socket i can, say, download a .so into the engine's AI folder ...
and then restart Spring (all from within the malicious map widget) with this AI enabled, causing its code to execute
if feeling extra evil, i could make it a .jar instead of .so, and have it work on all platforms
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:04
why even download anything
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:05
just have the map contain the payload?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:05
i mean, if you already have malicious widgets
well yea
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:05
they have limited FS access and exec context
not exactly arbitrary code execution
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:05
just like http, no?
i mean, doesn't http download into memory?
or does it download into files?
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:06
it downloads into a string
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:06
so it's the same thing
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:06
if you mean that i could have just the string prepared
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:06
yes
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:06
sure, a widget that itself contains the payload would be more practical
but it wouldn't demonstrate that luasocket without http is just as unsafe as luasocket with http
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:07
it means that luasocket in general isn't relevant
if all you will do is save files using the existing Spring functions
it would need to do something else
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:25
if the goal is to illustrate that http can be reimplemented on socket with all its malice, i guess, the abma widget is enough on its own
i have made the issue
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:26
yeah looks good
seems like the new ZKL release is disastrous
pity chobby isn't ready to take over xD
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:28
that quick?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:28
-> what?
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:28
zkl release being found disastrous
i would channel DF style fatalism and say that it was sad but not unexpected
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:29
unless skasi is lying
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 10:29
but i'm genuinely surprised
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 10:39
the point of it being "disastrous" is that licho is going on a vacation soon
i'd generally be scared to release something as big without being able to maintain it immediately after
even for LD stuff which really doesn't have an important, permanent userbase i try to leave time and fix things after release
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 11:04
weblobby will grow larger
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 11:07
Yep
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:13
I think we need a milestone for testing
as in there is a point where we could post on the forums and say "if you're cluey it would useful for you to use this as your lobby, for bugs/feedback"
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:19
For this we don't need things like this Spring-Chobby/Chobby#53 and this Spring-Chobby/Chobby#86
which is useful if those tickets take a particularly long time
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 11:39
Licho said he'll be back this evening and tomorrow for hotfixes
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 11:46
@GoogleFrog a "feedback" release?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:49
yea, to some people to get testing and bug reports that arise from normal use
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 11:50
chobby with tinyskirmish seems not that hungry
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:50
why does the Configuration have functions to get and set each key? That seems silly
chobby with blank v2
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 11:50
i didn't have blank v2
where to acquire?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:50
some spring thread
possibly springfiles
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 11:52
let's add a link to the README
there were reasons before Configuration used functions
especially for set
it could go without it now
i don't think we can ask for people to use it before mandatory stuff are done
these are really basic things imo
e.g. they wouldn't be able to easily start games with different engines yet
hence #53
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 11:56
i added a mention but i don't know the link so i can't link it
mention might be good enough anyway
can maps be dependencied?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 11:57
different engines doesn't matter if you're just saying "here is a zip, try it"
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:04
so for "feedback release" i honestly dunno
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 12:04
added link
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:05
k
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:14
i guess you can put issues you want into such a feedback release
i'll add other stuff i think it's necessary but i still don't plan to do it very soon, despite the fact we probably could
i think if we don't show them a final version first, they might get polluted and later be unable to judge the final as a newbie might
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:15
yea there is that worry
but I think they are polluted already
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:16
zk forum people probably haven't seen it
so #zkdev and similar is OK for now
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:16
no I mean they are poluted by using the lobby server
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:16
ah
yes
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:16
so have expectations
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:16
blah
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 12:18
I just realized I have no convenient way to bundle campaign's mission archives and startscripts with campaign test branch
guess I can skip that and just have it auto-skip the missions, more interested in showing UI atm
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:20
"campaign test branch" = "chobby campaign test branch"?
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 12:20
yeah
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:23
@GoogleFrog I think Exit shouldn't disappear when you click on Singleplayer
Exit should always be there
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:23
what about MP?
so you just want always exit?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:23
always, yes
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:23
ten minutes spent applying ctrl-F to autologin message, one hour spent learning how to git
such is life
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:23
breaks the tree structure a bit
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:24
actually it's particularly weird if you are in small mode
if we didn't have tabs on the left it would be OK imo
although i'd put it a bit closer then
but the best solution is just to have it always be bottom left and never move
outside of the menu tree structure if you need
@Aquanim : use grep for searching project files ;)
and besides, you learn the code this way :D
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:27
I was looking forward to people with automatic logic
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:28
: x
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:30
oh I didn't ctrl-F every single file, no fear
the ten minutes was spent working out what to ctrl-F to change the checkbox location
and then finding an example elsewhere of how to change boxsize
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:33
i didn't even know you could (change boxsize)
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:33
that one was actually google... the grep of the internet
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:39
gajop why do you start the lobby with login window?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:41
seems like a reasonable choice to me; although for people that have "Logic automatically" we can have it login in the background
but the automatic login then needs to be decoupled from the window
i do want a window to be shown for new users; registering/loggin on the server is the first thing they should do
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:42
is that true even for users who only want to play singleplayer?
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 12:42
what I'd really like for testing purposes is an X to make the login window go away
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:43
there's a cancel for that
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 12:43
ah right, herp
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:43
if you want SP you shouldn't get the login screen
and if you want MP you've probably got automatic logic so it will log you in at the start anyway
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:44
what do you think should be the first thing users see?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:44
SP, MP exit
on a reasonably clean screen
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:45
i think it should be the login/register window
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:45
maybe with something pretty?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:45
this is for new users only
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:45
yea, something pretty
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:45
well ignoring intros and stuff like that
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:46
so do you want people to immediately make an account?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:46
yes i think that's reasonable for how the lobby is designed
offline play should be possible
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:47
I don't mind having a login screen for new users but I think an offline, singleplayer, dont-make-an-account button should also exist personally
some people will want that
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:47
it does, it's called "Cancel" now
i'm not sure whether "Play offline" is something we should save so on next restart you don't get that login prompt
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:47
seems like we're confronting them with hoops that slow down their progress to clicking Singleplayer/Quickstart
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:48
i think it's not unreasonable seeing as multiplayer and communication is the key focus really
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:49
why is it the key focus?
I think the best thing for new players is to get to SP/quickstart as easily as possible
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:50
isn't it? i would classify all spring games as multiplayer games, unlike some RPGs
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:50
I think multiplayer is more of a focus than it would be for, say, starcraft
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:50
and the lobby itself seems to be geared mostly towards multiplayer/online play
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:50
and so from that you want players to enter a MP game immediately?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:50
not exactly what i'm saying
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:51
it is a failing of ZKL that how to start a singleplayer game is quite non-obvious
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:51
nah i do want a proper SP menu & support
but i think it should be done while being logged in
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:51
why?
the only difference is chat, is that enough?
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:52
I think if the "cancel" button were replaced with a button which explicitly says "offline singleplayer play"
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:52
well chat & friends, but it's not like they'll be doing both at first
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:52
that would resolve a lot of my reservation
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:52
when you're offline I want to replace the chat window with a big button "login for chat"
which prompts login
and if you click MP it asks you to log in
so I think once they attempt to chat or enter MP they are going to log in, if that is what they want
but login at start throws about 5 choices in their face. There are a lot of buttons and things which take text
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:54
in general I would not make singleplayer/offline more accessible in a way which compromises accessibility of online play
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:54
I think the login window (without the choice of server) isn't overwhelming
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:54
but the pathway to starting a singleplayer game should be blindingly simple and obvious
because the players who want that are almost by definition are the players who are least knowledgable about how the interface works
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:55
imo i'd present the users with the ability to login and/or register when they first start it
we do want players after all
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:55
that takes work
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:55
we shouldn't enforce it and it should be clear that you can play stuff offline
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:56
I'm okay with the ability to login/register being obvious, as long as the ability to play offline is obvious too
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:56
it still takes work. They have to parse and make decisions about a whole extra UI thingy
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:56
but i think it's a better choice then assuming they will mostly be playing SP, and enabling MP only in a particular situation
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 12:56
in starcraft 2 playing offline required you to jump through hoops and it was a pain in the ass
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:56
completely new players who are told to log in are not MP converts
I think it is much better to get as many people as possible in starting with SP and then make converts later
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:57
i think you're blowing it out of proportion
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:57
you will lose people who for some reason don't want to spend the effort deciding whether to make an account
they
they've got nothing invested at that point
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 12:57
is this a pain to do?: have a second window that only appears on first run next to login screen, with big text "If you just want to play offline for now, click Cancel -->"
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:58
the login window can be designed in arbitrary ways
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 12:58
but why make UI which tells people how to use the UI to do what they want when you could just make the UI do what they want
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 12:58
the question is whether or not it's too much in such an early stage
my opinion is that it isn't, google's is that it is
in my experience as a gamer, putting the login window first means that your game is mostly about MP
it's hard to talk about steam games as they all can identify you via steam account ID so login is often unnecessary regardless
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 13:01
I think putting the login screen first is okay, as long as there is a big and obvious button saying "click me to play SP offline"
cancel could mean "you don't have an account so now we exit"
is there a problem with that approach?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:02
that's what i wanted to do
except I'd name the button "Play offline"
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 13:03
the important parts are that it is obvious and clear
imo
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 13:04
"play offline" seems fine
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:05
its hard to find readily applicable studies as most free games are focused on the buisness model and paid games have a massive sunk cost bias to power users through for a while
and they don't study retention so much
but the advice seems to say to make the first experience as straightforward as possible
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:06
i'd say it is
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 13:06
I think it's important that "how to create an account" and "how do i play offline" are both as straightforward as possible
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:06
there's also something about how i don't like the first user experience to involve unexpected logins
L.J. Lim
@KingRaptor
Jul 07 2016 13:07
btw first draft techdemo of ZK campaign handler is up: https://github.com/KingRaptor/Chobby/tree/zk_campaign
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:07
you have to agree that no login window is more straightforward than a login window. You're just disputing the upsides
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:07
i agree, but i think normally you place authentication at the beginning of your system, it's something most people expect
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:07
my design for "how do I play online" is that login pops up when you click Multiplayer
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 13:07
it depends what you mean straightforward to
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:07
have it happen in the middle of usage is a bit different
i would find it unexpected if a steam game did that to me
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:08
when they click multiplayer they intend to see some sort of online thing. For those you generally need an account
if you want to prompt people to be involved online how about showing the window on their second startup?
anyway, I guess its confirugable
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:10
i'd rather never do it than that ^
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:10
showing login on second launch is pretty bad yea
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:10
i'm going to change Cancel to Play Offline and make it so login automatically happens in the background
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:10
I think a more-complicated-than-necessary first run is worse
ok
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:11
and we can configure whether LoginWindow pops up on first login
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:11
there is a widget called gui_login_window
do all the login handling and internal state there
actually, the login window should not close while you are waiting for server response
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:11
can your widgets be instanced before chobby is?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:11
yes
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:12
because they often reference the global configuration
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:12
at least the non-chili bits could
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:12
actually, the login window should not close while you are waiting for server response -> it doesn't? what do you mean?
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 13:12
Or you know, you could just make people login when they startup and be done with it
because that works
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:13
when you make login happen in the background do not make the current login window close early
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:13
i wouldn't even open the login window in that case
Aquanim
@Aquanim
Jul 07 2016 13:13
I think that a more-complicated-then-necessary transition to multiplayer (and to tech support in chat lobby) is as bad as one to singleplayer
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:13
only if you failed to login
i'm just going to implement and let you see, think that'd be best
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:14
I know you wouldn't open the window. But you might have also made the change to close the window early on manual login
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:14
i've no intention of doing that
although it needs to show that login is in process
there's an issue for that
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:15
yes, chat is a concern
to see chat they need to click on the chat tab. It could ask for login then
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:15
MP, Chat and Friends should all ask for login
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:16
and to enter MP they need a login at some stage in the process. However it is slightly more complex if they are asked to login when they click MP
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 13:16
Well, since all of those are online
why not just put all under one tab
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:16
@ParzivalX stop
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 07 2016 13:16
?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:17
ok gajop so you're going to be touching login_window and the widget?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:17
yes i'm doing that now
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:17
also, the login in core should use the widget imo. Don't have other things make login windows
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:17
if it can i will
well i'm sure it can with a bit of delay
or major layout rework ;..;
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:22
is there a global thing which says whether you are logged in?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:22
something in lobby interface
lobby.status i think
it can have 'offline', 'disconnected', and 'connected' or simialr i think
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:26
local function MultiplayerEntryPopup()
if lobby.status ~= "connected" then
local loginWindow = WG.Chobby.LoginWindow(MultiplayerFailFunction)
local popup = WG.Chobby.PriorityPopup(loginWindow.window)
end
end
hmm sometimes it formats and sometimes it doesn't
anyway, that is a change to login widget
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:26
use for format
erm
"`"
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:26
local function MultiplayerEntryPopup()
if lobby.status ~= "connected" then
local loginWindow = WG.Chobby.LoginWindow(MultiplayerFailFunction)
local popup = WG.Chobby.PriorityPopup(loginWindow.window)
end
end
`local function MultiplayerEntryPopup()
if lobby.status ~= "connected" then
local loginWindow = WG.Chobby.LoginWindow(MultiplayerFailFunction)
local popup = WG.Chobby.PriorityPopup(loginWindow.window)
end
end
local function MultiplayerEntryPopup() if lobby.status ~= "connected" then local loginWindow = WG.Chobby.LoginWindow(MultiplayerFailFunction) local popup = WG.Chobby.PriorityPopup(loginWindow.window) end end
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:27
hm
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:27
still bad
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:27
that's a single line one i guess
ahh
three of those
local function MultiplayerEntryPopup()
    if lobby.status ~= "connected" then
        local loginWindow = WG.Chobby.LoginWindow(MultiplayerFailFunction)
        local popup = WG.Chobby.PriorityPopup(loginWindow.window)
    end
end
switching to chat mode was more confusing oO
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 13:29
what IDE is that?
oh nevermind it's the gitter
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:32
ok something like this
we'll also have to deal with race conditions in general
or rather, lock the UI from doing certain things while waiting for the response from server
e.g. pressing twice on the login button
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:40
also, perhaps if the lobby is already doing an autologin it should let you open MP
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 13:40
isn't there also a "connecting" status?
maybe there is
yeah there is
also it has to handle disconnects well :P
hmmm
i think you should only be presented with a login dialogue if you are "offline" or had incorrect PW
but disconnected/reconnecting/connecting/connected shouldn't
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 13:59
I'm having trouble loggin in
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:01
hm something's wrong
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:01
are you sure the Exit button won't just further confuse the tree structure?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:09
ah fuck you ZK server lol
seems like it's not chobby but server
my SWL is down too
it's so odd, i get some messages from the server but seems wrong
wrt Exit button, i think it shouldn't be attached to the main menu if tabpanels won't be (and they won't)

because then there's a disconnect between the menu

Singleplayer

Multiplayer

[] Chat
[] Settings
[] Downloads

Exit

no don't want markdown :(
but ok maybe it explains it better
it's odd if those 3 bold letters worked as a single menu
while stuff in the middle doesn't
and still exit should be in the bottom
you could consider moving Chat/Settings/Downloads at some other place when in small mode, such as in top; but not sure if room
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:17
I couldn't connect to spring server either
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:17
with chobby or? SL works for me
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:17
chobby
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:18
I'm still not sure about this battle status window because I like the consistency of having everything which displays something in content place on the left edge
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:20
well
the only other option is to (re)move the "Your Game Here" window and use full height for Main buttons
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:21
is it?
I'd make the buttons a bit smaller in small mode. They all fit
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:21
if you want everything on the left edge it is
you think so?
i actually did that already
locally
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:22
they can easily be smaller
i'd make them smaller anyway
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:23
that looks basically fine
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:23
keep also in mind this chili skin isn't exactly correctly displaying size
buttons are kinda big actually
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:24
this is how they look
if they are bigger with a different skin then make the settings make them smaller
I don't see how this can be misleading here
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 14:25
and now the infra seems to have accidentally
i was just going to gloat at my glorious countering of bullshit with sql
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:27
this is the actual size of our controls: http://imgur.com/a/2vYFE
basically this is what hit tests affect
this is the reduced height i just pasted
should be fairly obvious how small our skin is, especially when looking at the padding between controls
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:34
@GoogleFrog chobby works with spring server if you change that config
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:34
yea I found out
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 14:43
all forum battles seem to be dead links
or not?
guess someone's actively doing stuff
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 14:44
something happened
i've restarted the server
looks like you had the luck to click it during the five seconds of downtime :D
ZKLS was down for about 30 minutes though
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:45
no, it was unloginable for a while
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 14:48
so more than 30m?
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 14:50
about that long perhaps
it seems to fail to let new users log in
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 15:02
it fails to accept new logins after a while
not to do with newly registered ones
Анархид
@Anarchid
Jul 07 2016 15:03
i think it just enters this weird hiccup mode after deploy
this is not the first time i have to do this
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 15:03
ok
so I've added the battleroom status window up the top and fixed related issues with SP and MP battle states
GoogleFrog
@GoogleFrog
Jul 07 2016 15:08
I'm not so sure about the feature
perhaps it would be ok if the button had lots of useful info, ZKL style
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 15:09
i'll see in a sec
currently adding more info to buttons
so maybe see what we can do first
to tab buttons to be precise
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 16:06
it's taking me so long to find some stupid chotify-related bug
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 07 2016 16:39
Button's pretty big
but hey, that's the key to a Game lobby anyway
Hmmm
Why not ;) let's go with this
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 07 2016 21:28

I want to challenge the "staying connected to lobby" paradigm
The pros are obvious:
1) You get more functionality: you can spec a game, chat with your mates and eat a burrito all at the same time
2) You don't have to rejoin a room you've just played in
The cons imo are:
1) Pro 1 causes issues with idling players (even not on purpose - people don't notice they're ingame)
2) This encourages spec parties
3) Multiple windows - in some way we're losing a bit of the cool part of Chobby - the possibility of having the entire spring experience bundled neatly in a single window.

Many other MP games don't work this way either.

I find it unlikely that I will convince anyone, but I wanted to put this thought into writing :)