These are chat archives for Spring-Chobby/Chobby

8th
Jul 2016
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 02:41
@ashdnazg is this about launching Spring in a different instance? I think it's important, at the very least from a technical standpoint so we don't lose lobby connections
Even if we didn't want people to be able to use the lobby program while they're ingame (legitimate reason, lobby chat can/is also done ingame, and less worry about performance), i'd still have it opened (hidden), so you don't disconnect.
Authentication is slow, and it's odd to see people going offline when they join a game
afaik LoL/dota and other lobbies also hide the interface when you play the game, but your connection is stable; dota is obviously a bit of an exception due to steam
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 02:47
i think the intention of chobby was to mimic those two lobbies, except that it'd support multiple games and be different in other regards (no $$)
it's mostly a multiplayer lobby i think, as that's what the games that currently exist are about
i would do the layout of a singleplayer-first lobby, or an equally SP/MP lobby differently i think
chat, downloads, friends, my battle, my queue and other MP stuff wouldn't be visible until the player clicks on the MP screen
a lot more things should then appear just on that single page, like classic lobbies work
neither are bad design but i think they are used for different games
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 04:27
@KingRaptor : I finally got to trying out your campaign in chobby
I think "New game" and "Load game" belong to the left side, in the menu
Back isn't necessary if you make New game/Load game a tab
i think also the campaign should take the whole Content Place
once you start it that is
only popups we plan are for "Login window", "Ready check", and possibly "Game/Map selection"
but not for main/permanent things
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 04:40
@GoogleFrog : do you think it would be worthwhile implementing UI scale for the lobby, like: https://s.blogcdn.com/wow.joystiq.com/media/2013/04/ui-scale-slider.jpg ?
i'm not sure if you've noticed, but i've implemented parts of it in the login window (when i was experimenting with it): https://github.com/Spring-Chobby/Chobby/blob/master/LuaUI/widgets/chobby/components/login_window.lua#L27 ; i'd rather prune it from that if we don't plan to use it
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 08:59
gajop so the real thing that needs to be solved is keeping the lobby connection alive
I think this may be possible
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:00
yes and no :D
i'm just saying that keeping the connection is mandatory
and not related to what you will do the lobby client UI
now keeping the lobby process up and running is the easiest way to solve it; and also isn't bad really
or rather, that's the debatable part
whether it should be kept running & visible or not
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:01
making it invisible is a bad idea
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:02
some time before i was thinking we could use Spring.Reload and preserve the socket (other stuff can be serialized easily)
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:02
you don't make running things invisibile because then users have errors, they can't close the lobby and find 20 instances of lobby in their tasklist
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:02
why though? as far as the user knows, it closed
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:02
it's bad form to keep stuff invisible
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:03
it's what professional games do often
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:03
wat?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:03
they don't kill the client
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:03
they don't spawn 2 processes
at least not afaik
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:03
pretty sure they do
well
highly likely
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:04
none of the games I currently play do this
I can think of some that did
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:04
i'm at work and can't try it right now
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:04
but these didn't hide a window
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:04
actually don't even have windows so can't try lol
but should see in dota
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:04
so I'll have to install dota
ok
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:05
i will too, i might be wrong xD
i think dota is closest to spring games, at least the ones that run on linux
mostly MP & always connected
buut
let's not spend too much time on the whole invis/recreate and other stuff
that's not important
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:06
imo it is
so I'll spend time on it
:D
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:06
why? i thought the point is to discuss whether the lobby should disappear when game starts?
seems to me it's just a technical thing how it would disappear and reappear
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:06
I'm thoroughly against hiding lobbies
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:06
and not related to the user experience
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:06
err
hiding windows
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:07
again, technical solution and not related to user exp
am i wrong?
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:07
"you don't make running things invisibile because then users have errors, they can't close the lobby and find 20 instances of lobby in their tasklist"
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:08
that's a technical thing really
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:08
in general, making apps invisible is considered bad form
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:08
the point of your proposal was whether we should have lobby clients open or not
well you were proposing that we don't have the lobby client running while the game is
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:08
if something is running (especially with net connection) a user should have indication that it is
I didn't!
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:08
no?
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:08
:D
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:08
then i misunderstood you completely :P
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:09
you didn't
you just didn't let me put my idea forward
I think it's possible to move Chobby into LuaIntro
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:09
ok so you have chobby as it works now, where it starts things into new instances
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:09
no
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:09
what would you have it done (from a non-technical standpoint)
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:09
it will start things in the same instance
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:09
i'm giving you the current state man :P
ok
why?
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:10
I don't understand
we've just talked about why
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:10
we talked about hiding & stuff which i never planned to do
ignore that
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:11
why not starting stuff in a new instance
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:11
i'm telling you to look at how chobby works now, as it starts spring in different instances; and asking why you think it's wrong and what should be done differently
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:11
that's because I don't want two windows and I don't want to hide a process
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:11
ignore hiding for now
there's no hiding
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:11
I can't ignore it
and I said why I don't want two windows
in the first post
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:12
that's the core i think
"and I said why I don't want two windows"
this is what needs to be discussed
i think
1 vs 2 windows
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:12
"3) Multiple windows - in some way we're losing a bit of the cool part of Chobby - the possibility of having the entire spring experience bundled neatly in a single window.
Many other MP games don't work this way either."
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:13
right
i'm saying those are valid concerns
but i don't think i would readily agree that the cons outweight the pros
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:15
that's entirely reasonable
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:15
from a technical standpoint the reason we want to have two processes is to ensure lobby connection is permanent and that we can handle game crashes somehow (for Steam we also plan to make a very, very simple background process that can handle Chobby crashing)
but that's implementation
it's important for now but not critical for the future
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:16
don't make watchdogs and background processes :S
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:16
i dislike the idea of having background processes because that introduces complicated distribution and having to worry about multiple platforms; so they should be as simple as possible
how would you handle Spring crashing?
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:16
you're thinking like making an industrial application
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:17
games i played 10 years ago had that, e.g. WoW
and Spring crashes a lot :|
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:17
not that much
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:17
access violation error! boom, player can't play, no feedback
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:17
we can easily store if spring exited successfully or not, and check that on next startup
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:18
startup of what? chobby doesn't startup if spring doesn't
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:18
not in chobby, in engine
hmm
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:18
ok, and do what with it?
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:18
ask the user for anonymous report?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:18
from spring?
or rather, the GUI window Spring might spawn
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:19
yes
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:19
i assume games would have limited flexibility to handle that
and it doesn't exist xP
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:19
games will have no flexibility here
but these aren't game issues but engine issues
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:20
well yes
they were still raised as a concern by @GoogleFrog and were one of the reasons i implemented Spring.Start
that and permanent lobby connectivity
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:21
just know that you're going to have trouble with users managing to kill everything and keep the watchdog stuck
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:21
(although Spring.Start only solves game-specific engine crashes, not general crashes that always happen)
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:21
and then they'll have multiple watchdogs running or something
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:21
i don't want the watchdog, but it's like a parachute
if it's badly implemented then you get tangled in the parachute and die while in the cabin
but if it's implemented well ..
Eshed
@ashdnazg
Jul 08 2016 09:22
what would you have it do?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 09:23
anyway, i've no immediate plans to solve the two issues (lobby connectivity & game crash handling) differently due to priorities so i don't think i'll be implementing it in single process yet
and even if somethings were implemented we need to think if we should use it or not
so a discussion about whether it's necessary/good is required, but i don't feel it's immediancy
i've made a discussion issue (could use a forum, huh) Spring-Chobby/Chobby#99
please detail your standpoint there and what you think are the pros/cons of doing it
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 11:16
hi
it could be posible to integrate Chobby on a existing game ?
so just reload map and etc...?
as dependency?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 11:57
You cannot just reload the map. Reload also reloads the game
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 11:57
:(
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 12:04
Does
Doesn't really matter
Most of the time is spent loading the map, not game
Reload uses the same process which is why it's important
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 12:05
so it could e posible?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 12:05
(Game window is the same)
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 12:05
instead of launching another instance of spring?
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 12:05
It still reloads everything else
Yes that's what reload does
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 12:06
will investigate that in that direction
Gajo Petrovic
@gajop
Jul 08 2016 12:06
But lua state and everything is gone
It doesn't take an investigation, just change Spring.Start to Spring.Reload
Jose Luis
@TurBoss
Jul 08 2016 12:06
ah
investigation concluded
:D
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 08 2016 16:26
hey @gajop
could you make chobby install guide on wiki plz?
ParzivalX
@ParzivalX
Jul 08 2016 21:43
also
another question
where can i find deluxe player list widget on zk
i want to modify to make full screen
FPS style