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    Cory Smith
    I agree with @CyrusNajmabadi; will add more about how the 2007 post is way off - with evidence to support this.
    Mohammad Hamdy Ghanem

    we don't have two teams here

    There was no Roslyn back then. And most what he said about doing every thing twice for two similar languages I heard the team literally repeating 10 years later.

    Mohammad Hamdy Ghanem

    do you just go out looking for posts from 15 years ago about people negative about the future of VB?|

    No, I just bump into them everywhere along the vb timeline!

    Mohammad Hamdy Ghanem
    The clear point is that vb demolition started back then, as it is obvious from the post and the MS team member response there, that vb was the most famous and vb express had the highest downloads, but all new techs and sdks has C# support. This is why the post predicted VB devs migration to C# , which already happened when new ASP.NET and Xamarin frameworks didn't support VB.
    It's hard to believe that kleinma saw that coming, while the team couldn't. At least we are sire now that he warned them! So, Why we still got the same result?
    there was roslyn back then
    we weren't open source though
    No, I just bump into them everywhere along the vb timeline!
    perhaps if you go looking for things to support your negative view, you'll always find it
    like how people get sucked into social media spirals.
    I also literally never understand your position
    because you ask us to both not change anything, because that's painful for companies to adapt to
    but you also want us to change things non stop with new apis and sdks
    my position is that you simply like to do nothing but be negative.
    Basically, you exist only to be a naysayer/killjoy
    no matter what happens in any direction, you will always view it with negativity
    See our recent conversation on working with you to fix the issues in VB.net that you reported.
    you complained that we weren't doing anything about it, but hten wouldn't even work with us to try to fix it with you.
    but all new techs and sdks has C# support.
    this is amazing to me.
    it's like you view any support of C# as being a negative for VB.
    Yes. we support C#. It's a popular language (like with VB).
    the support of C# doesn't diminish that (and i really wish you'd stop looking at everything positive toward C# as something to complain about).
    If you want to help VB, help us with it.
    If you want to just be a negative nancy, go somewhere else and spread your negativity there.
    Mohammad Hamdy Ghanem
    @CyrusNajmabadi Do you get any kind of therapy? I guess you sldo, and this is why i go easy with you, becuase i understand your obsession and it is not that hard to use it to drive you crazy. Guess what: your product is not perfect, and your remarkable work has issues and your policy about vb and many products makes devs angrey and juge you every were. A normal healthy man will accept the criticism and use it to make his product better. You on the other hand are very hostile to anyone that report issues or even make new proposals! In fact this attitude explains where all these fatal decisions come from. You all need help man. I hope you get it. Happy miserable night :D
    By the way, I found it siilly to respond to your sick accusations. I am one of the very few active in vb community, and you are very aware of vazor, record source generator and sVB. I always interpreted the negativity accusations to youe mental issues or something, which is not strange among computer geeks, and this is why i always ignored them.
    Mohammad Hamdy Ghanem
    But for your info, i went to that vb.nt forum to announce sVB 1.3.2, where i saw this old thrad. I don.
    I don't need to search for anything. Tens of thosands of vb devs are cursing you every were as you destroy their business. You are very cleaver in makking your customers do bad publicity oaout MS. Your rival s are proud of you.
    Cristian FRC

    Guys, there is no reason for discussion, we have to find another way if we want VB.NET to have a competitive future.

    1st) MS definitely loves C #

    2nd) with Guido van Rossum working on MS Python is the new focus.

    Perhaps the Basic world will definitely take a new turn, there are many dialects and everyone is separated trying to gain market share.

    VB.NET in my opinion is still the best variation, but it is also the most isolated variation.

    If we want a place in the sun, we should behave like the F# community or even the C# community, we need to find more people willing to evolve VB.NET, but I doubt that's what VB.NET developers want, it seems that most are already enjoying the idea of ​​following the same steps as C# on Mercury.

    Until we create a good path for VB.NET, discussions are in vain

    Cristian FRC

    My main questions regarding VB.NET are:

    1) Will VB be able to evolve through a community?
    2) do we need MS to make this happen?
    3) Will MS implement any community-created suggestions?
    4) Or we will need to create VB.NET. org?
    5) if we create VB.NET .org, how is the relationship with Roslyn?
    Can anyone answer these questions?
    I think that's our real concern with VB.NET.
    What do you think?

    Cristian FRC

    now someone help me please!.

    What is today the best and most current set of tools for WEB development with VB, I'm a little lost with several options and little material to help me choose, honestly I'm lost in it!

    Cory Smith

    @VBAndCs You just couldn't wait until I provided a full response to your post and had to jump with defending your negative views. Many of us have real jobs, families and other commitments. I, for one, was involved with my 4yo and 8yo for Halloween activities. I saw the post, took a quick moment to read what you pointed to and added my quick response stating that I would take some time to respond to it more fully.

    YOUR (and other people's) behavior is literally part of the problem. I would argue that it is the biggest problem with VB.

    Let me illustrate the problem by taking things outside of the tech space... in 1930 there was a situation where, because of negative thought becoming reality most banks had no money ("Panic of 1930"). Why did this happen? A very few number of banks had issues causing discussion to occur that this must be the trend that all banks will have (regardless of location, size, stability, etc.). This discussion led many to believe that banks were failing (although they weren't) and caused a widespread panic across the entire country with people going to the banks and removing all their money... in turn causing the very thing that they were concerned about. Negativity has VERY REAL CONSEQUENCES. It is literally a happening today. People believed that there would be no toilet paper... made rush of people mass purchasing toilet paper... leading to a shortage of toilet paper.

    Is this behavior destructive? Yes. Let's discuss for a moment vaccines. A "doctor" (who, at the time was but no longer is) published a very faulty study that vaccines (in general) were causing autism. It gained traction through media and has held strongly by people of a certain ilk. The study was peer reviewed and found to be utterly false; so much so that either due to this study and/or other factors (it turns out he was motivated by money to generate this faulty study) the doctor in question had is license banned from practicing medicine in the UK. That doesn't change the fact that the ongoing damage has been done. People believe that vaccines are bad and the ripple affect is that we have deceases returning that have been previously irradicated along with the fact that (combined with politicization) there is a heavy resistance to taking vaccines for COVID-19.

    These are called self-fulfilling prophesies and negativity has real, very lasting consequences.

    Taking to this another slightly different angle. Do you want to be surrounded by negativity? Do you go to places where there is just a bunch of people complaining all the time about this-and-that? Do you think anyone else likes going to gatherings where this takes place? No. Of course not. No one wants to join a community of negativity. So why do you think it is a good idea to continue to be so damned negative? It's exhausting! @CyrusNajmabadi is absolutely correct in his assessment of you. You refuse to take a moment to do any sort of self-reflection. Please, please, please take a moment to do so. And remember the old adage... "If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all."

    I recently started reading about the subject of "Dark Psychology"; you are... very literally... falling deep, deep, deep into several aspects of this type of activity. Please stop.

    None of this takes away from your contributions; with that said, it's difficult to gain momentum and/or contributions from others if you are going to approach your projects from a point of negativity.

    We should be discussing how we can help. What can we do. Where can we affect change. It is OK to see the negativity... but helping to spread it serves what purpose? The problem in your approach is all you are doing is trying to help solidify a narrative. If you believe that VB is dead, then please... shut the hell up and go elsewhere. It's not that hard of a concept. If you want to affect real change, then start by being speaking positively, activity with positivity and accept the helping hands of those doing the same...

    Cory Smith

    I remember a Microsoft representative that shared a story with me that has stuck with me for many years; I'll attempt to share it here. The story goes that when he was a Scout Master (for those not familiar, this is a volunteer role that is handling a group of children) he would have a lot of "complaints" about this-and-that from the various parents. This negativity was ongoing and he had a great way of dealing with it within these common meetings where this would occur. He would listen to the problem being raised and, upon the parent finishing with their complaint, he would respond with something along the lines of "so you are volunteering to resolve this".

    This illustrates several points:

    • It's really, really, really easy to complain about things - it literally cost nothing and takes near zero effort.
    • It's really, really, really hard to solve many, many, may problems.
    • Most people don't want to put in the effort.
    • Most people simply can't resist complaining.

    Some quotes...

    “Change is inevitable. Change is constant.” – Benjamin Disraeli
    “Be the change you wish to see in the world.” – Mahatma Gandhi
    “If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, change your attitude.” – Maya Angelou
    “Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” – George Bernard Shaw
    “Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.” – Barack Obama
    “Change is the law of life. And those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.” – John F. Kennedy
    “The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.” – Alan Watts
    “When we are no longer able to change a situation – we are challenged to change ourselves.” – Viktor E. Frankl
    “He who is fixed to a star does not change his mind.” – Leonardo da Vinci
    “Sometimes if you want to see a change for the better, you have to take things into your own hands.” – Clint Eastwood
    “We cannot change anything until we accept it. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.” – Carl Jung
    “If you want to change attitudes, start with a change in behavior.” – William Glasser
    “In order to change the world, you have to get your head together first.” – Jimi Hendrix
    “Change the changeable, accept the unchangeable, and remove yourself from the unacceptable.” – Denis Waitley
    “Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.” – Victor Hugo
    “A lot of people get impatient with the pace of change.” – James Levine
    “When you blame others, you give up your power to change.” – Robert Anthony
    “To change what you get you must change who you are.” – Vernon Howard
    “Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts.” – Arnold Bennett
    “We live in a moment of history where change is so speeded up that we begin to see the present only when it is already disappearing.” – R. D. Laing
    “A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.” – Winston Churchill
    “When it becomes more difficult to suffer than to change… you will change.” – Robert Anthony
    “I don’t know if you can change things, but it’s a drop in the ocean.” – Julie Walters
    “I can’t change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination.” – Jimmy Dean
    “Change your thoughts and you change your world.” – Norman Vincent Peale

    and very true for the current C# space (seeing a lot of very heated differing opinions regarding ongoing changes)...

    “Change occurs in direct proportion to dissatisfaction, but dissatisfaction never changes.” – Douglas Horton

    and oh so true...

    “Our dilemma is that we hate change and love it at the same time; what we really want is for things to remain the same but get better.” – Sydney J. Harris

    and I so love this one...

    “I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.” – Stephen Hawking

    Cory Smith
    Fanaticism can be a good thing... but let it be one of positivity not negativity.
    Now regarding the link to the forum post...
    • C# and VB are not the same... to claim they are similar is someone trying to convince you that the two aren't necessary and/or to get you to switch, because (of course) they "are the same".
    • There are more than a handful of things you can do in VB (and C#) that you can't do in the other (especially at the time this was written). I'll circle back to this below.
    • Regarding the frameworks mentioned; all of these support (or rather supported) VB.
    • It is not silly for Microsoft to support multiple languages for a platform that is literally about supporting multiple languages (.NET, CLR, CLS, etc.). How this idea has ever gained traction boggles my mind. So I can only assume that it is, again, someone trying to convince you to use what they use instead of use what you want to use.
    Cory Smith
    • The "mass migration" of VB devs to C# is, in my opinion, a most likely that cause of the self-fulfilling prophesy effect.
    • It is not the "VB teams" purpose to prevent what target developers choose to utilize; one can simply point to the fact that there is a project (pre-.NET) in place that is literally about supporting multiple tools (languages) within the same product... it's called Visual Studio.
    • Regarding the right tool for the right job; there are many cases where VB (and C#) aren't the "right tool". This doesn't stop VB devs (and this has a long history) of trying to force the issue with very creative work-arounds and solutions. In the VB4-6 days and even during the early days of VB.NET, Dan Appleman's Visual Basic Programmer's Guide to the Win32 API was essential to have on your bookshelf for this very reason (and, yes, I still have mine).
    Cory Smith
    I also point out that this forum post was created about 1 month AFTER the release of Microsoft Visual Studio 2008 which shipped with one of the largest batch of changes / improvements to VB that has occurred over the lifetime of VB.NET.
    Cory Smith
    As for the what can be done in VB (and not in C#), the list is actually pretty long. Some of it is going to be very obvious while others are extremely nuanced. With that said, there is (and will always be) some fundamental differences between C# (and C-style) languages versus VB. Integer division is one that easily demonstrate the overall difference pretty clearly. In the computer world (hardware, lower level, closer to the metal), when you divide 5 by 2 the result will be 2. In the mathematics world, of which VB has it's pedigree, 5 divided by 2 is clearly not 2 it's also not 3 but since it is "closer" to 3 the result should be inferred as being 3 as it is clearly not 2. And, technically, this doesn't occur during the division, it happens during the conversion from a floating point value to an integer value; of which can be hidden (inferred) from the view. In my opinion, if you ask many people what whole number would you assign to 9.9999999, most people would state 10. This is not the case in C-style languages (like C#). No matter how many decimal places you have set to 9, the result in converting it to an integer will be 9... not 10. VB (and BASIC) attempt to operate as one would expect, not as the machine dictates. This is the fundamental difference that VB has over other languages. VB.NET has, in some cases, lost sight of this during the passage of time; but overall it does still try to maintain this pedigree and the release in 2008 went a long way to do correct some of the missteps that occurred since VB7. There are many, many, many areas in VB that work this way... as someone who has done more C# -> VB conversions than I could possibly recount, there are tons of differences that are nuanced that if you primarily utilize one or the other you wouldn't ever encounter. On the surface there are things that appear to be the same, but as the duck floating in the pond appears to be casually coasting along when you look under the water their feet are going as fast as they possibly can be.
    Cory Smith
    And then there are all of the features that, I would argue, exist in C# now because people drank the koolaid thinking they have no choice but to jump ship from VB to C# and constantly complained about not having feature X in C# now that they made the jump. Which, to me, is completely insane given that the whole point of .NET was cross language. But, for whatever reason, people think it's a better idea to completely abandon what they know for something else instead of simply leveraging "the best tool for the job". It is not that ridiculous to accept that a project couldn't contain more than one language. I mean, seriously, has anyone seen how many languages one has to do to create a simple web page these days (HTML, CSS, Javascript, JSON, XML, etc.)? But this is accepted... but a project written in VB with some C# (or vice-versa)... UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!. I mention this as most of the perceived "blockages" can easily be dealt with by simply taking the route of writing in C# the small amount that is needed to "glue" your majority written code within. Is this a little annoying? Yes. But, NEWSFLASH, this is the way it has always been (or at least in my memory). On the RadioShack Color Computers... write a lot of the code in BASIC with some ultra-fast routines written in machine code. In QB45, utilized libraries that were written in ASM. In VB6, utilized libraries written in Delphi (for multi-threading) as well as libraries written in C/C++ (to incorporate/expose C-only API's). The underlying problem hasn't changed and I don't see that it ever will. However, the beauty of .NET is that (if people can adhere to the principles) this is less difficult to do.
    Cory Smith

    To say this all another way... how many people are VB developers out trying to convince other developers to use VB? Delphi? C++? F#? F# is a great example of passionate developers using the tool that they love doing the things that they love without a high volume of them complaining about "Microsoft doesn't love F#!!!!". Are there some? Yes. But it's not prolific. Also, these are F# developers making complaints about the language that they love... they aren't typically "everyone else is getting the attention we need/deserve". I'm constantly inspired by the overall F# community. If they want something, they are quick to "just do it"; they don't really complain too often or too loudly. Again, absolutely inspiring!

    Are there people who utilize C# that are constantly trying to convince (especially) VB developers to "just make the switch already"? Absolutely. And they are loud, prolific and exhaustingly persistent. Why? I mean it... why? Many of them are self-proclaimed product experts on VB - though have never utilized it making claims about whatever in order to convince. Why? There is an answer... it's complicated but I'll try to summarize it with the basic psychology that in order to solidify their decision in their choice they will try to convince others to make the same choice. Does this characterize all C# developers? Absolutely NO. Most C# developers are just like VB developers... the silent majority. It is only a small number of people who are self-haters (VB) and self-proclaimed champions of conversion (C#) that make up the majority of this noise.

    I love VB. I use VB. My business is built on VB. I know and use multiple languages, but I have the luxury of choice so I use VB for everything I can. Not everyone has this choice; but I do and I'm thankful. I also have faith in Microsoft that they will do what they can with the resources that they have to maintain (and improve) VB. This isn't blind faith, this is me seeing the work being done and being thankful that it is.

    I've seen, time and time again, people claiming that VB isn't going to work in .NET 5 (it does) and that it will not be supported in .NET 6 (again, it is). One has to wonder why these statements are being made, what is their overall agenda.

    I finish this off with the fact that, from all appearances here and in other online spaces that @CyrusNajmabadi has and continues to show positivity toward VB and it is my hope that any negativity he is experiencing simply because the is a part of Microsoft (by some) will not dissuade his commitment to VB. I, for one, am very appreciative of the time he takes (which is his personal time) to be involved here and the education that I've received from his involvement here has been invaluable to me personally. Also, being part of Microsoft doesn't make you a representative of Microsoft. It's a very large company and decisions are made "way above ones paygrade" on a regular basis. As @CyrusNajmabadi has pointed out on multiple occasions (thanks, in part, to VB being open source) he affects change in VB on his personal time because he also loves the language. I think it is important for people to keep in mind that, by the very nature of being involved in this group, you love the language and want to see it continue on. If you don't fall into that category, this isn't the place for you.

    Cory Smith

    Finally, regarding the link to the forum post... one should look down a couple of responses... specifically the one from Paul Yuk.

    VB is the most used .NET language according to the internal surveys we conduct as well as Forrester research (both looking at pro developers). Then there's the fact that VB is hands down the most downloaded and registered Express Edition (includes pro's and nonpros).

    Let that sink in for a moment. This is in direct response to a naysayer's negative outlook on the future of VB because the current situation of VB (at the time) was looking bleak because people are stating that it is bleak due to it not being able to do in part with some API/Tech stacks (what I've already pointed out is not factual).

    Saying that this is foretelling the future is completely looking at this wrong. What really happened is that people locked into this idea (regardless of facts) and, even to this day, continue to be told / think that VB is dead. This all reminds me of a scene from one of my favorite movies...


    Cory Smith
    I do want to take a moment... and I do mean this with all sincerity... to thank the likes of these people (those that dwell in the negative) for giving me the opportunity to self-reflect on similar behaviors so that I may be a better person by attempting to discontinue similar activity. It's, as they say, a journey; one that I will continue - I'm not saying that it's easy, but I am certainly trying.
    You on the other hand are very hostile to anyone that report issues or even make new proposals
    i have literally invited you on numerous occasions to work on your reports. i've offered my time off to do this so to help make VB a better product.
    i and others on hte team have done this several times
    in each occasion you've stated that no, you refuse to work with us, and you don't care if the issues actually get addressed.
    You call us hostile, while we have been trying to find ways to solve your problems.
    but you have refused to give us even an inch in return :-/
    at thsi point, i think you've burned the bridges with everyone else, and i haven't seen anyone willing to even try anymore to reach out.