These are chat archives for abranson/rockpool

31st
Mar 2016
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:48
Hi @abranson , So after the conversation over on Telegraph what are your thoughts. I'm willing to have a go at creating an extension to PebbleKitJS to let watch apps read phone state but it's hard to know what format Pebble would go with.
It's your project, I have no expectation that you will accept code just because someone has written it so before I spend time on this what are you likely to accept if anything.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:50
Did we get at least slight uhuh from Kath or other peb. guys?
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:50
(This is also assuming my attempt at C++ code doesn't look like a drunken keyboard mashing session).
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:51
I mean in our project we can include whatever we want, and in general if you need some feature you can always fork and then just keep rebasing your code and to hell with mainline owners :)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:51
Yes we did. Kathrine says they aren't getting many requests for this so it not planned at present. She didn't like the idea of exposing dbus directly but had no issues with a well defined API.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:52
I wasn't very impressed with the discussion to be honest :)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:52
Do tell. (If you have criticism for me then go for it!)
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:53
ok, then first we probably need to define what do we need from the phone. If there's some existing phone object in android sdk we can get that as a baseline and just map jskit on it, finding corresponding items on the sailfish
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:54
i wasn't expecting michael to be interesting in the dbus thing, for me it's a good differentiator between what sailfish is and what ubuntu touch is trying to do. Sailfish is all about giving you the full potential of your device along with the risks that go along with it. They seem to be trying to create another consumer safe OS that just happens to use linux underneath.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:54
that way we may stay as much inline as possible
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:54
/interesting/interested/
but i think that got dwelt on a bit too much anyway
but i think we should totally do it :)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:55
I wasn't expecting the conversation to go in to philosophical differences between Ubuntu Touch and Sailfish/Jolla but I found it very interesting.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:55
well that's the thing is you go enterprise. you need to guarantee a) api b) lockability c) security. that contradicts with flexibility and opennes in each and every aspect
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:56
only if you claim it. experimental apis are a thing
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:56
yeah, experimental webkit api is evergreen
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:57
there you go. if Qt can get away with it :)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:57
Indeed. I deal with Open Source vs Commercial add-ons all the time in my day job.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:57
i thought that system info working group thing was impossibly dry though. such a long time to produce next to nothing.
it's almost like some sort of technical filibuster to stop a useful standard arising, especially as they started from that workable nokia contribution
thanks for asking in there though - it needed to be done
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 12:59
No problem, conversation is good.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 12:59
it took mroe than 10years for enterprises to accept linux. Only as a server. Desktop is slowly leaking in, phones are on the way. btw desktops also started from some highly customized locked down thin clients.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 12:59
and i really like seeing the different roles between these things get defined, and it helped that
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:00
so Jolla appeared way ahead of time
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:00
michael occasionally has a pop at sailfish for being dirty and hacky. i like to reply with a picture of king leonidas :D
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:02
%) I know that feeling
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:02
i don't see why we have to limit what we do with our phones just because the average user would have trouble with it. i think there's a market for 'unreformed' geeks. put a warning on it, sure, but don't stop me messing around. that's why i have a jolla really.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:02
exactly the reason for me as well, tired of being guided what i can and cannot do
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:02
and if sailfish is sparta, then i suppose that would make ubuntu a bunch of 'philosophers and boy lovers' :P
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:03
I think there is a difference between Jolla and SFOS as well. Non technical users can really get along with Jolla and Harbour but will run away from downloading stuff from OpenRepos. Its one of the reasons I don't like to see Jolla having so many problems, it limits the audience.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:03
so let's do it - like i said it may only be used for our own personal apps, but what's wrong with that?
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:03
sounds good to me.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:04
yes, i agree. the n9 established that really well with 'developer mode'. and if you got in a mess you could just reflash it and blame yourself, but you'd have your phone back (most of the time)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:04
Out of interest, what do you view the difference between pure Jolla flavored Sailfish and Ubuntu Touch.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:04
but again, if we're targeting wider audience - better to stick to some existing more or less steady api from android, that way it could be easily adopted
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:04
what did you think of that nokia systeminfo api?
they share a lot of the same components underneath, but ubuntu are slowly replacing things with their own.
UI is completely different. Ubuntu is on a newer version of Qt, and has only a few custom QML components instead of a whole UI suite like Sailfish Silica
Theirs is completely open source too, while Silica is closed.
the attitude is different too though - ubuntu sigstops all apps when they lose the focus. there's no multitasking. apparently you can enable it with a hack, but that's the design of the system.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:09
how about services?
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:09
It's not too bad, gives a nice pattern to follow that isn't too over the top.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:09
as a result, when they ported cutespot over, it would stop playing when it lost focus. they're now designing some special background hook so things like that can run in the background in special circumstances just like in iOS. Same weak battery life arguments apply
from what i know, we share telepathy, mpris (though that's got some special QtMultimedia wrapper in Ubuntu). They use upstart of course instead of systemd.
yeah it's quite clean, but it's not linux to me
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:11
ofono?
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:13
yes
they haven't done the sip yet either
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:13
The license on it is also fine for us to use it how ever we like without issue.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:13
but it's close
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:13
The next Ubuntu release 16.04 LTS will be moving to systemd.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:14
i quite liked upstart too. it was a nice compromise. but you don't stand in front of lennart :)
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:18
how'bout making JS level similar to this http://developer.android.com/reference/android/telephony/TelephonyManager.html ? Don't think we can map all the fields but still quite an extensive info
Or are we after really system metrics like cpu memory battery and stuff?
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:19
Bettery yes but I'm not sure CPU and Memory would be useful to watch users.
oh good, the W3C have two entirely different specs called System Information API and System Info API.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:21
sys info seems to be discontinued
hm, although information is older standard, but not marked as discontinued
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:23
call status is already handled by the voicecall stuff - i'm not sure we'd need that.
(r.e. the android api)
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:24
yea, also though of that, but that's where I'm saying we need some usecase, bcz at the moment i don't understand the need for this
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:24
It is, but it's where the battery level work came from that got published a few days ago. Discontinuation note here https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-system-info-api-20140114/
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:24
w3c is a mess now. they've got to that stage where they're producing standards that one partner designs and implements and yet it's still called a 'standard'
that sysinfo working group really shows that
i'm sensitive to useless standards - we still have some CORBA in our platform here :)
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 13:24
wow
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:25
Ever worked with OSGi, I worked on the spec. Proud moment.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:25
that's a sore point too. having that forced on me :)
dunno how it started, but it's incompatible with a lot of java services now
things like the javax.script framework and jaxb can't find their implementations
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:31
This feels like a day job conversation now. :(
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:31
hehe sorry
you are at work though, right? :)
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:33
I am, thinking about Rockpool is welcome distraction from writing UI Integration tests with Groovy code.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:34
i agree with you 100%
also two ronnies videos :(
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:37
Sad indeed.
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:46
Are you using the Sailfish IDE for working on rockpool and does the emulator do a decent job with the daemon etc.. or do I need to keep pushing my work to my phone and testing it there.
Andrew Branson
@abranson
Mar 31 2016 13:53
yes i use the sailfish ide. i'm not sure if the emulator works with the bluetooth - i've always pushed it to the phone. it's so easy to do.
if you need any tips give me a shout
Christopher Frost
@cgfrost
Mar 31 2016 13:55
Thanks very much.
ruff
@rufferson
Mar 31 2016 14:14
I've tried setting up phone emulator - it lacks many things, not just bluetooth. on the other hand since you're going to work with daemon part - just check whether required dbus interfaces (or whatever you're going to use as data feed) is present there. to me emulator is still more convenient than phone - all in one place.