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    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Bedankt @RubenVerborgh!
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    I'd like to introduce @tomhgmns and his developers and @joeitu to each other, as they both work on CSS - IDP integration. Technical discussions should take place without delay on this, because Theo's thesis' content should be ready before December 22nd, when CERN's shutdown starts. Thank you for being so present and active in sharing!
    tomhgmns
    @tomhgmns
    Hi @joeitu , feel free to ask @woutermont any questions about setting up CSS with KeyCloak
    We’re not always active on Gitter, so feel free to reach out via tom@digita.ai
    1 reply
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    You can find slides and links from our presentation at Solid World today in https://indico.cern.ch/event/1082763/ - 120 people joined the event.
    Pieter J.C. van Everdingen
    @pietervaneverdingen
    @mariadimou, many thanks for the update on Solid activities at CERN. It is good to see concrete examples of Solid use cases related to the Indico events tool with the comments on events use case and the use case for registration to events using profile data from pods, combined with the implementation details and the decision when to store personal data in a pod or not given sensitivities and other practical reasons. It was also good that the challenges and concerns were addressed in the presentation given the current state of Solid and what future Solid activities are scheduled at CERN. I will join this Gitter channel, first as a reader and possibly also as a contributor later on.
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Thank you @pietervaneverdingen for the summary of the talk.
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Welcome @bsegal and thank you for your interest in our activities!
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Screenshot from 2021-10-13 10-30-21.png
    @RubenVerborgh please tell me why the bottom-right shows inrupt and https://www.imec-int.com/en and not University of Ghent.
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Screenshot from 2021-10-13 11-09-16.png
    Sorry, this is the screenshot I should have put here. The question remains the same. I always know that Inrupt funded the University of Ghent for the development of CSS. Still... inrupt and imec signing!?!?
    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    Hi Maria, the development of the Community Solid Server so far has been funded by Inrupt, executed by imec. My research lab is part of both Ghent University and imec, so all of them work for both organisations.
    The copyright is with Inrupt and imec, hence the mention.
    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    ("them" being my colleagues working on the CSS)
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou

    Thanks @RubenVerborgh - In the policy document, which you have read, the need for a preferably european and open source solution is emphasised. At the moment, with @joeitu, who does his MSc on the CERN CSS hosting project we shall go to the end of CSS evaluation.

    Nevertheless, for the long-term CERN Solid server, I am thinking intensely about these commercial partners...

    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    @mariadimou I don't think I understand.
    • "the need for a preferably european and open source solution is emphasised." => yes, and CSS is both—is there an issue here?
    • "we shall go to the end of CSS evaluation" => what do you mean with "go to the end"?
    • "I am thinking intensely about these commercial partners" => is there anything wrong with the partners?
    There might be a misunderstanding regarding the nature of imec. We are a Belgian research organization.
    imec supports research groups in Belgium, such as mine.
    There is nothing weird commercial going on here.
    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    I would really appreciate if we can clarify this, because there seems to be a concern that something disingenuous would have happened, which is not the case.
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Bedankt Ruben. I am blocked now with other tasks but shall write tomorrow PM at the latest
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    @mariadimou I agree with Ruben, the copyright assignment shouldn't be a problem. First of all, IMEC International is "a legal entity set up under Belgian law as a ‘stichting van openbaar nut’, Register of Legal Entities Leuven" (see https://www.imec-int.com/en/disclaimer-imec), so a non-profit, so it would be illegal for them to do anything evil. As a co-holder of the copyright, they should even keep Inrupt in check.
    Second, copyright of an open source project is important to contributors (they generally need to sign a contributor agreement and generally can't expect a meritocracy inside the project), but it's not that important to its users, because you can always fork! The only thing you would lose then, would be the use of the name, but you can take control of how the code behaves (example, for instance: LibreOffice as a fork of OpenOffice).
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong

    And third there are (simplifying a bit) basically two ways to govern an open technology project: as a single software project or as a collection of sovereign but interoperable software projects.

    Solid OS, for instance, is a single open source project, where all (constructive) contributors are welcome. Choices are made by consensus within the weekly meeting, and "who builds is right".

    The server-side part of Solid is organised differently from the OS part. There is a spec and an independent test suite, and everybody is welcome to do their own implementation of it.
    The independent Solid test suite is funded by donations from many independent parties, see https://github.com/solid/test-suite#initial-sponsor so that ensures that no one party can do a "power play" to impose their opinions and interests on other stakeholders of Solid.
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    See also chapter "4. Progress" of https://cds.cern.ch/record/2782493 about Solid as a multi-stakeholder project (minutes 37 to 42 of the recording)
    HTH! :)
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou

    Thanks very much @RubenVerborgh and @michielbdejong for all the info. Here are the clarifications to the bullet points asked by Ruben:

    "the need for a preferably european and open source solution is emphasised." => yes, and CSS is both—is there an issue here?

    Would it be possible to place at the bottom banner of CSS pages something like: Developed by the University of Ghent with funding from inrupt and imed please?
    Reason: I wrote a long and complex document to request funds for the future of CERN-Solid projects. Anything that can emphasise the research, european and open source nature of the product would help.

    "we shall go to the end of CSS evaluation" => what do you mean with "go to the end"?

    The follow-up project we are doing now has to shrink in scope because @joeitu's time till his MSc defense is very limited, 2 months remaining. This is why, my hope to have a CSS server in operation at CERN after this exercise will have to wait for additional resources in 2022. At present, what we can do is evaluate and document the current CSS functionality, which is inferior to what CERN users expect from a web application. We shall share our notes with all of you, of course.

    "I am thinking intensely about these commercial partners" => is there anything wrong with the partners?

    The answer is included above. Given the explanations you (Ruben and Michiel) gave, one should assume there is nothing wrong.

    Thank you again for being present and responding.

    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    Thanks @michielbdejong, I appreciate it!
    @mariadimou I'll go through it point by point.

    Would it be possible to place at the bottom banner of CSS pages something like: Developed by the University of Ghent with funding from inrupt and imed please?

    I can investigate; but there might be legal obstacles. (Ghent University and imec have a specific framework for IP.)

    In any case, it is absolutely correct that the CSS has been designed and written by people from IDLab from Ghent University.
    It just happens that IDLab is also part of imec.

    Anything that can emphasise the research, european and open source nature of the product would help.

    Note that imec is a innovation hub recognized by the European Commission: https://s3platform.jrc.ec.europa.eu/digital-innovation-hubs-tool

    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    So that definitely gives us the research and European character that you're looking for.
    The open-source commitment to CSS is in the license: https://github.com/solid/community-server/blob/main/LICENSE.md
    all code, and this includes the core of the server, is MIT licensed

    We shall share our notes with all of you, of course.

    Thank you, that's great.

    what we can do is evaluate and document the current CSS functionality, which is inferior to what CERN users expect from a web application

    Just making sure that we're talking about the same things: CSS is not a Web app and never will be. It's a server; the apps should be separate and be built against the Solid spec.

    Basically, it's like Apache and NGINX, which are also not Web apps.

    one should assume there is nothing wrong.

    Awesome, thanks Maria!

    mariadimou
    @mariadimou

    Many thanks to @tomhgmns and the Digita.ai developers for agreeing to give @joeitu access to the Github repo containing their keycloak-based ID proxy code.
    It is clear that the source code is made available to CERN for audit and use by CERN for non-commercial purposes and that Digita will provide support on a good will / best effort basis.

    @joeitu will try to develop a Solid CSS -- CERN SSO integration from scratch in addition, for the needs of the MSc.

    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    The lectures given by Michiel last month at the inaugurating lectures of the 2021-2022 CERN Academic Training programme on Federated Data Architectures are now in the CERN Lectures' YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/c/CERNLectures. Feel free to share with anyone interested.
    Lukas Vanhoucke
    @Lukkie
    Hi all,
    I was pleasantly surprised to see that CERN is actively supporting Solid! As someone who now works at CERN but did a MSc thesis on the subject back in 2017-2018 under supervision of Ruben and Joachim (https://libstore.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/002/494/871/RUG01-002494871_2018_0001_AC.pdf), it feels like destiny that our paths once again cross and I'd be more than happy to help with CERN's goals regarding the implementation of Solid. I hope we can achieve something great :)
    Jan Schill
    @janschill
    So cool! 🎉
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Indeed! I read @Lukkie's thesis today and find it a very useful example for structure and input for @joeitu forthcoming MSc report, in addition to @janschill's https://cds.cern.ch/record/2771156?ln=en of course.
    Ruben Verborgh
    @RubenVerborgh
    Oh hi @Lukkie 😃
    Theo
    @joeitu
    Will definitely have a look !
    mariadimou
    @mariadimou
    Dear all,
    please check these notes from a meeting last Friday with the Citizen Science Centre Zurich Managing Director @rosymond .
    The background and candidate application proposal is there. An attractive Solid pod UI is a prerequisite for going any further.