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    Jackson Palmer
    @ummjackson
    it stops crazy spikes
    so when profit = high
    multipools jump on and get all the blocks
    difficulty skyrockets
    then doesn't retarget for 4 hours
    KGW retargets every block
    so it's more fair once the multipoolers leave
    voidref
    @voidref
    won't the multi just come back again?
    and get all the next blocks?
    I don't get how it works, really.
    what does the targeting use to set the difficult of the next block?
    if it's the current block, then it will still be hard for 1 block
    then if it goes down
    the next block will be low
    and the multi will jump on that one
    raising the next block, but leaving when that happens
    so the multi will get all the easy blocks
    and leave the hard blocks for everyone else.
    again, just guessing how targeting works
    also, how multis work
    the only thing that would work is creating some kind of way to make it impossible to jump in and out of mining
    voidref
    @voidref
    if the point of mining is to make transactions work, then why not make the reward for mining the ability to do transactions
    then you don't have to artificially make mining any harder than it needs to be.
    still, I don't understand this, in effect.
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    I don't know enough about targeting vs. multipool tactics to know what the right answer is
    I'll try to read about it, but I expect that every scheme will be susceptible to manipulation by big pools to some degree
    If I was really optimistic I would hope that there's a serious mathematical analysis of these targeting methods complete with bounds on how effective various pool tactics might be
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    I do agree about moving to fixed block rewards, for what that's worth
    Jackson Palmer
    @ummjackson
    fixed block reward, there are a couple of PRs so we're getting there
    the difficulty retarget is the biggy
    Casey Fleser
    @somegeekintn
    hey just catching up on everything here, I forgot about this to be honest... I actually did a little work on an alternative difficulty algorithm when I was playing with a test coin I made. It was an exponential moving average I think, but I bailed on it at some point
    had concerns about floating point determinism because I'd recently run into a problem with that in a game I'm working on.
    FWIW I think dogecoin has a strong enough network that 90% of the problem could be addressed by changing the diff retarget interval to a smaller number. like 10? 20?
    Casey Fleser
    @somegeekintn
    Interesting. Netcoin recently switched to KGW and I see this morning that the coin appears to be broken. Not sure it's related though.
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    I think I would default to keeping the current simple algorithm with increased interval. The fancier the algorithm is, the more likely it has some weird dynamical behavior you never thought to check for.
    and somebody smarter will come along and do some clever variational calculus thing to find an exploit that makes small miners sad
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    Can I be a wet blanket and ask if it would be better to just make the reward fixed and then re-evaluate whether the difficulty retargeting is still insufficient? Changing two behaviors--especially if we're going to come up with a new retargeting algorithm--seems fairly risky.
    But I don't know if the current feeling in the community is that both things must be changed "right now."
    At any rate, if I can help by running a testnet client or two, please post a message here and I'll be glad to.
    Max K.
    @langerhans
    Well, for the community it has to be done yesterday and we should also integrate ethereum, scrypt-n, scrypt-jane, KGW and whatnot
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    lol
    "yes please just cram all these features in all at once, I'm a developer and I know nothing could go wrong"
    Max K.
    @langerhans
    I agree though that changing two things at once is not very representative in the outcome. but random block rewards is just for the "block gambling" problem
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    yeah I definitely think random rewards should go away first
    Max K.
    @langerhans
    The multipool jumping problem is well known. I remember the Fedora community asking for help cause a Multipool jumped off them in mid diff cycle, leaving them with 5 times or so higher blocktimes.
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    Yeah mooncoin was stuck with multi-day confirm times not too long ago because of that too
    although I think our base hash rate is high enough right now that we may not suffer as much from jumping
    Max K.
    @langerhans
    So I'd say tackling both problems in one fork is somewhat resonable. A fork is always risky. Better fuck up once than twice :D
    Alan McIntyre
    @alanmcintyre
    Just so the retargeting change is fairly simple and not some novel algorithm that nobody has tried before
    Max K.
    @langerhans
    Well, if we really go for 10 minute retarget... I don't know a coin (in our scale) who tried that before