These are chat archives for dry-rb/chat

18th
May 2016
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 07:19
@AMHOL I laughed at that too. Ruby 5 have had a lot of blog posts about small changes in Rails 5 over the past few months. They're probably wishing that it would get released so they can start talking about the finished product!
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:02
@wjdhamilton Yeah, crazy how Rails focused everyone is
And how's it going?
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:06
@AMHOL yeah, it's almost like DHH has his own cult. But then, a lot of people probably came to Ruby through Rails
Sorry, trying to type here with my daughter on my knee. She keeps trying to help me and it's not very helpful
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:07
that's her job :D
and yeah, it is a cult; it's only once you stop drinking the purple KoolAid that you see how damaging it really is
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:08
Things are going OK, my first client website is ready to deliver, and I had a meeting with a new client today. EasyJSONMatcher is nearing the end of a total rewrite which should make the code a lot nicer and the gem easier to use so yeah - things are fine
@jdickey I agree. I heard an interesting comment a few months ago that Rails is bad for Ruby because it makes it too easy to hack something together without really understanding what you're doing.
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:12
@wjdhamilton nice, congrats on the delivery for the first client
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:12
rails is bad for ruby on many different levels
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:12
@wjdhamilton I've been calling my job (chief engineer at a startup) "Chief Rails Mitigator" for a while now. It's scary how much Rails' ways of doing things permeate your thoughts and design, two years and more after you took a conscious, collective decision to go cold turkey. At least I've been reading a lot of folks lately who reassure me that we are building a post-Rails Ruby community, even if there's still such a well-funded and -marketed DHH Pageant still going strong. :tired_face: Sorry for preaching so much there. And yeah, congrats!
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:13
@jdickey dude, this abbrev to CRM :laughing:
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:14
fun coincidences abound in life, yes? I can see making a dandy early-oughts CRM system in Rails; very little else, though
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:15
CRUD + fire-and-forget Devise for authentication and there you go; the Rails 2.3 sweet spot
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:15
David (the post author) has been around for a while, it’s almost shocking to me that people are still wondering if anything good can happen with Rails
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:15
I always liked this Tweet RE Rails cult
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:16
my big feel-good article of the day was stumbling across Andrzej's latest https://medium.com/planet-arkency/the-journey-to-rails-and-tdd-da639d921e17#.zcxiajaf9
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:16
@jdickey that was tl;dr for me
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:16
yes, exactly; Sequel saved my sanity on more than one occasion
scroll down to the end and he's got a nice seven-item bullet list
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:17
@amhol @jdickey Thanks! You'll probably be disappointed to know it's a Rails site, but that's just because it's the only framework I know. Started learning Hanami a couple of weeks ago as an alternative
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:17
@wjdhamilton building anything for a client using an unstable framework would be irresponsible unless you know you’ll be maintaining it for a while
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:18
Hanami's pretty good; if you've invested serious time in Rails you might want to give that Arkency-on-Medium link a read; I said I was chief Rails mitigator, not (yet) chief Rails supplanter
and once more, Markdown chokes here :P
but oh well.
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:19
@solnic Good point.
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:20
@AMHOL my fav tweet that gives you a lot to think about was sth like “Clojure has Rich Hickey, we have DHH”
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:20
@wjdhamilton @solnic oh, definitely agreed. Which just buttresses the argument that Rails is the PHPification of Ruby; it took 10+ years for anything like a useable framework to gain any traction over there
@solnic score one for Clojure :mask:
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:21
it may be seen as a super snarky tweet, but it’s just brutal truth
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:21
it's enough to make me want to go back to Smalltalk
Hunter Madison
@hmadison
May 18 2016 11:21
Hey Pharo 5 is great!
Just umm hard to use with Emacs
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:22
lol I haven't watched any of Rich Hickeys stuff, still on my todo list
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:22
@jdickey @solnic @AMHOL Yeah. A lot of the criticism I heard was aimed at ActiveSupport in particular. The implication being that if you had a problem to solve you didn't solve it yourself you just looked to see if ActiveSupport had a solution
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:22
never touched Pharo; that was always on my "take a look next quarter" list
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:23
@AMHOL oh wow really? you do that, start with “Simplicity Matters” from RailsConf
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:23
:+1:
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:23
then “The Value of Values” and “Simple Made Easy”
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:23
Pharo looks interesting...
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:24
@wjdhamilton ActiveSupport has ZERO solutions, it has workarounds for missing abstractions
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:24
definitely going to have to take a look
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:24
done via monkey-patching
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:24
@solnic Bingo!
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:24
@solnic :100:
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:27
rails devs are careless because of that, they do whatever the hell they feel like is “handy” and “nice”
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:28
And quick. Most of your codebase can be full of gems that you only installed to solve a small problem
Benjamin Klotz
@tak1n
May 18 2016 11:28
get shit done now, oh hey 2 years after its a maintenance hell
and with now I mean NOW, and don't think about it how to properly solve the problem
:D
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 11:29
@tak1n :+1:
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:29
well, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools, but it took me well over two years of getting back into Rails (3.2/4 after leaving when 1.0 was new and shiny) to realise that the problem was not just me; the way I think about OO in every other language I've touched in 25 years just doesn't apply here, to a greater degree than when PHP 4 introduced "objects" back when it was Teh Hawtness
that's another cult I was lucky to have escaped — or so I thought at the time
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:30
I did OO PHP for roughly a year, then escaped to Ruby
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:31
about half of the Rubyists I've chatted with in the last ~5 years are fellow PHP refugees
Benjamin Klotz
@tak1n
May 18 2016 11:31
I did Symfony 2 for 2 years :D
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:31
That looks the closest thing to a useable system they've got over on their side of the fence now; is it?
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:31
yeah, PHP => Ruby was very common, also Java => Ruby and .net => Ruby
next thing will be Ruby => Elixir, mark my words :P
Andy Holland
@AMHOL
May 18 2016 11:32
lol
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:32
I heard about Java and dot-nyet folks coming to Ruby; I'd done .NET back when it was full of promise, and a lot of the guys I worked with are now in the Scala and Erlang communities
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:33
I’m working on a scala project atm
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:33
oh, Ruby => Erlang has been happening for a while now, but the beauty is (to hear several such folk tell it) that you don't mind going back and forth so much as, say, the PHP evacuees
Benjamin Klotz
@tak1n
May 18 2016 11:33

@solnic I wanna try to get some rust into dry-* stuff
what I thought about as "easy" first step was to write default predicates in dry-logic in rust?
any other plans?

I think I will try to use helix for that

Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:34
the first shocking thing for me was learning that you say it “Scale-ah” :laughing:
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:34
yeah, there was that. Too many people have heard of the Italian opera house
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:34
@tak1n yes writing predicates in rust would make it a lot faster, I suppose ;)
Benjamin Klotz
@tak1n
May 18 2016 11:35
@solnic okay I will give it a look this weekend, stay tuned :D
Piotr Solnica
@solnic
May 18 2016 11:35
scala has some nice concepts that I would like to see in ruby
Tim Riley
@timriley
May 18 2016 11:38
“scale-ah” :astonished:
Funny this conversation is happening. I am late on this week’s blog post, writing it now, and it’s the one where I have to get all the rails problems off my chest :grin:
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:40
@timriley going to have to start reading your blog, too :)
Tim Riley
@timriley
May 18 2016 11:40
@solnic thanks for the talk suggestions! I too haven’t seen any of his.
@jdickey my to-do list says I have enough topics for the next year :joy:
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:43
piker. My observation is that I grow my backlog by about four months' worth every year. I've been writing code with the expectation of getting paid since 1 June 1979. You do the math :P
Nikita Shilnikov
@flash-gordon
May 18 2016 11:43
@solnic take a look at https://github.com/seattlerb/wilson :)
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 11:44
that's something that I have no difficulty whatever seeing SeattleRB sinking a few man-years into. Fun, pointless, but hey, it's out there :)
good stuff
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:05
I started developing websites using Java EE. That experience scarred me for life. Rails was a huge leap forward from that hideous beast of a framework.
@timriley Really good series of blogs on Dry gems - penny totally dropped after I read those
Tim Riley
@timriley
May 18 2016 12:05
@wjdhamilton thanks! I hope to keep them coming, 1 per week.
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:06
@wjdhamilton I can relate. Java EE was the second most negative experience I've had with a language in my career.
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:07
@jdickey Just a bafflingly frustrating experience.
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:09
that would attract you to a no-layers "architecture" like The Rails Way. But Number One on my list, hands down, is the Wang VS minicomputer. Its system language is a (variant, incompletely compatible with standards) of COBOL. Everything you write will be in COBOL or something that runs within a COBOL app. Including, for example, terminal emulators.
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:10
Wow! The company I left (as Marketing Director, not programmer) used a management system that ran on Wang. Their developers were always telling me how awful it is
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:10
I guarantee you they were giving you the tl;dr/non-techie version of it
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:11
My other horror is Ember. I actually think it's probably very good if you take the time to really learn about it but I just find it a huge source of frustration. Moved over to elm, which is a totally new language but I'm enjoying the experience so far
totally new to me, that is
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:12
It is the only system that, were I presented with two job offers where one was VS COBOL and the other was JEE, I would gladly start writing Java Egregious Everything again
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:12
:smile:
And yet either would be enough to drive you mad!
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:13
not saying that the subjunctive is the correct tense there, but yeah :D
@wjdhamilton just took a look at your StackOverflow link; rewriting it in APL would definitely improve readability :P
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:15
APL?
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 12:17
the APL Programming Language; a pre-GNU recursive acronym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language)
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 12:18
:smile:
Tim Riley
@timriley
May 18 2016 13:04
OK, I’ve finally got the “danger will robinson” portion of this blog post done. And since it’s bed time now, I might share it here for your feedback. I want to outline the key issues with Rails before providing an alternative picture of a more sustainable Ruby web app architecture.
I don’t want this to be just an attack piece, though – hopefully the second part will be a positive counterbalance. Let mek now what you think, anyway.
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 14:53
@timriley Pretty fair analysis I'd say. Underlines the attraction of Rails to new developers as well as demonstrating how one can become stuck in the framework
Jeff Dickey
@jdickey
May 18 2016 15:13
@timriley Good start, and it reads like you're setting the stage for something positive in the remainder of the post. Your point that it "would take considerable discipline to pull this off" is very well taken, and the last half of that paragraph-long sentence, if anything, understates the danger. The framework may offer "all manner of conveniences" but what really screws you as a new developer is the community/DHH entourage that screams at you that you'd be stupid not to use everything, everywhere. That community, IMO, should feel disturbingly familiar to anyone who followed the PHP core developers' mailing list during the first half of this decade; calling it "toxic" would be damning it, and its follow-on accreted around Rails, with far too faint praise.
Tanner Donovan
@ttdonovan
May 18 2016 18:11
@flash-gordon I see you’ve closed out the last issue of dry-monads. Do you have suggestions for other features or issues I could potentially help out with? Or should I just keep poking around the other gem issues and help if I can.
Nikita Shilnikov
@flash-gordon
May 18 2016 18:25
currently I don't know, I have an idea about free monad but it's kinda experimental feature, I need to play around with it for some time first. I think the gem is lack of code docs atm :)
Tanner Donovan
@ttdonovan
May 18 2016 18:27
ok so more code examples for dry-rb.org, which gems to think do a good job of this already for comparison
Nikita Shilnikov
@flash-gordon
May 18 2016 18:30
yep, I guess docs should be splitted for easier navigation
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 20:11
@solnic I've picked up a few wee typos in the documentation for dry-validation. Is there a repository I can fork to correct them for you?
Nikita Shilnikov
@flash-gordon
May 18 2016 20:21
@wjdhamilton you're looking for https://github.com/dry-rb/dry-rb.org
James Hamilton
@wjdhamilton
May 18 2016 20:26
@flash-gordon thanks