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    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    that is a bit of confusion, no? yes, in progpow, a "modest reduction in w/h is feasible", meaning it is asic friendlier than ethash.
    Jon Stevens
    @lookfirst
    image.png
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    oh wait, I haven't deleted that one yet
    done. you guys can continue to fool the ETH devs, but we are not interested.
    what does bob's "a modest reduction in w/h is feasible" mean?
    Jon Stevens
    @lookfirst

    Ah, here is the 'newz'. Sonia wasted $3.8m and is finally ordering enough wafers to make 200 boxes.

    https://www.coindesk.com/powerful-new-ethereum-miner-reaches-final-stage-before-mass-production

    E-waste ftw!
    El De-dog-lo
    @fubuloubu
    @Sonia-Chen can the EF buy one of your miners for evaluation purposes now that it is being released?
    I feel like regardless of which way these things go, that would be good to have
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    thanks for asking. We are following an open process. We 'taped out', that means chip-back in 8 weeks, then weeks for chip bringup, more weeks for prototype building. Maybe by then Ethereum is already happily hashing away at ProgPoW :) Of course we will make available units to developers and commmunity, we are part of it. Our aim is to make the chips programmable, that's another story. We stay in touch regardless, first we hope the chip works. Thanks again.
    Peter
    @pmauric

    I have just set up an instance for this debate here, please suggest claims, vote and requests for participation!

    https://www.kialo.com/should-ethereum-adopt-programmatic-proof-of-work-progpow-30878

    (This is a follow-up to Hudson’s request that all the pros+cons get catologued in a useable format - I find Kialo to be the best thing out there at the moment).
    Andrea Lanfranchi
    @AndreaLanfranchi
    @pmauric another poll ?
    We had already a lot of them all with same results. Community asks for ProgPoW.
    And now that the audit is favorable ... what else do we need ?
    Peter
    @pmauric

    This is not a poll. It is a framework for presenting all the arguments for and against in a way that anyone can review the current state of the debate.

    In response to this request from Hudson: https://twitter.com/hudsonjameson/status/1174154313997979648?s=20

    The only “polling” within Kialo is your ability to rate the voracity of a claim for or against. This feature can be turned off but I find it useful to understand which arguments are really resonating
    Andrea Lanfranchi
    @AndreaLanfranchi
    I totally do not agree on this nth try to delay things by Hudson.
    The statement from Core Devs was clear. "We'll go ProgPoW unless major isssues emerge from the audits".
    No issues emerged.
    Anyway ... do whatever you think. This thing is getting ridiculous .
    Danno Ferrin
    @shemnon
    Will we get guidance from IfDefElse on the keccak finalization question?
    I wouldn’t say no issues emerged.
    El De-dog-lo
    @fubuloubu
    that's definitely something which needs to be resolved
    Danno Ferrin
    @shemnon
    So to be clear on my expectation, the LA audit raised some questions relating to the padding of Keccak in the core of the algorithm. I would like one of MissIf, MrElse, or MrDef to either post some algorithm changes to address that or explain why algorithm changes are not needed and why the hash is still secure. I’m not a crypto expert so I don’t know which one is more likely or preferable so I’d like the authors to move on it.
    Jean Cyr
    @jean-m-cyr
    A classic example of the argumentum ad nauseam fallacy...
    Andrea Lanfranchi
    @AndreaLanfranchi
    @shemnon can you underline the "issues" (as exploitable) vs the "we don't understand why ?"
    The Keccak function 800 is well explained in the specs of Keccak itself
    And is also mangled with fnv1a on the state.
    Danno Ferrin
    @shemnon

    From the Least Authority audit, Suggestion 1

    Suggestion 1: Scrutinize the Custom Keccak Function
    Synopsis
    The Keccak function variant in ProgPoW does not use padding. Intuitively, this is a safe change, especially because the hashed data is exactly one Keccak-block long. However, while rounds and the parameters b, c, and r are configurable, the padding used in Keccak is fixed to multi-rate padding. This technically means that the hash is not a Keccak instance.
    Mitigation
    Professionals with experience researching and investigating Keccak should further explore the hash function.
    Outcome
    A deeper look at the custom Keccak function could elicit previously unidentified security risks.

    The lack of a padding step makes it not a keccak instance. Does this matter and does it need to be fixed? That’s what IfDefElse should speak to.
    Their opinion on Suggestion 2 with the possible parameter change would be interesting too, but I don’t see it as a blocker as it is for an attack that doesn’t exist yet and may not for a number of years.
    Brent Allsop
    @BrentAllsop

    @pmauric, As the founder of Canonizer.com, I recognize I am very biased. However, I’ve found that Kialo is designed to polarize people around ideological divides. Sure, people can weigh in on the validity of various arguments, but what is needed is more information about what it would take to get people to get on board with the consensus (or lack thereof). You need to be able to measure the quality of the arguments and evidence by how many people they convert.

    Kialo’s tree structure just polarizes everyone at every branch and completely loses anything anyone agrees on (usually all the most important stuff). In contrast, Canonizer’s tree structure allows you to create super camps containing all the important consensus stuff everyone agrees on. You can push disagreeable stuff down to lower level sub camps out of the way of consensus where you can still keep track of it while focusing on what it would take to convert people to a consensus.

    Brent Allsop
    @BrentAllsop
    Here is the link to the ProgPoW consensus topic.
    https://canonizer.com/topic/211-Agreement/1
    There are new versions of the statements currently in review. So if you want to see the latest versions, be sure you select “Include Review” on the side bar. You can see the various version history, including what is in review, via the “Manage/Edit” links.
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    Bryant, at least you are reading stuff: The Bob Rao report says that the promised "closing of the efficiency gap" is untrue, in plain english that ProgPoW is asic friendlier than Ethash. In a year you can say you "heard this over and over" :) We get to the truth slowly.
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    Please quote the piece of the Bob Rao report where he says ProgPoW is ASIC friendlier than Ethash.
    Danno Ferrin
    @shemnon

    @IfDefElse from twitter regarding Suggestion 1: (https://twitter.com/IfDefElse_/status/1174480889532698624)

    Hello.

    We would ask you to first refer to the Keccak specification - listed here: >https://keccak.team/keccak_specs_summary.html

    To quote: “The value of the capacity c and of the suffix Mbits jointly provide domain separation between the different instances…”

    “The standard instances typically add a few trailing bits for domain separation. When made of bytes, the input of these functions then becomes Mbytes, while Mbits is solely determined by the instance used, see Table 3.”

    We do not add any padding, but that in no way has any effect on the cryptographic properties of keccak. Padding exists to make sure different variants don't produce the same results, but we do not ever actually care about the result.

    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    page 5, executive summary details - 'by offloading computation part to an asic, a modest reduction in E/H is feasible'
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    @Sonia-Chen: Ok, making that into "ProgPoW is ASIC friendlier than Ethash" is kind of a stretch
    @shemnon: Are you content with that answer?
    Danno Ferrin
    @shemnon
    Yes. It’s what I thought too but I wanted the authors to clearly state it. This StackExchange elaborates on what they mean by using padding to distinguish variants - https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/60875/why-was-padding-changed-when-keccak-became-sha3
    Greerso
    @greerso
    Is Bob Rao available to respond to specific 'interpretations' of his report? Seems there are conflicting interpretations from parties each with their own biases
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    @salanki I hope you know what "modest reduction in E/H" means in this context and for your GPUs.
    @shemnon wasn't that "look at the code, not the people" before? seems you keep going back to those "people" for advice, aren't they known scammers? Who are they?
    El De-dog-lo
    @fubuloubu
    They are the authors, and they should respond to their own review. That's pretty standard practice.
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    I haven't seen a single conclusive "interpretation" of the bob rao audit with respect to what EIP 1057 promised, and I doubt we will get it. I saw campaign tweets "progpow effective says audit". I interpret the Bob Rao audit laregly in line with what we said over the past year. The facts we know cannot change, and anyone with integrity will find the same facts. No surprise here. Come to Telegram LinzhiCorp if you want to know more in a scammer-free environment.
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    Scammer free, conspiracy heavy. Great diet for any crypto miner who ate too much while building racks in 2018!
    @Sonia-Chen: Build a general purpose ASIC (ie. a GPU) and I will be very happy
    Offloading the compute from the GPU and still using a GPU for the memory bandwidth is not an easy feat. SQRL tried it with their Acorn.
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    the term "conspiracy theory" was created to stifle free discussions. there are no conspiracy theories, there are just theories. then you have a free market of opinions and humans are pretty good at sorting out the bad opinions. the term 'conspiracy theory' is anti-democratic and anti-enlightened.
    @salanki ok but now you are saying Bob Rao is wrong. that is fine.
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    No, not at all
    What he is saying is true
    I am saying it isn't easy.
    "Building a rocket will get you to outer space"