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    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    I mean, it's easy to say you can build something when you haven't tried.
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    that is true!
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    Building an ETHASH ASIC was harder than you thought
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    we are self-censoring us on "easy" nowadays, after 9 months of delays
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    It is not impossible that you underestimate how hard it is to build a ProgPoW ASIC as well
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    very true!
    you are moving away from the conspiracy theories :)
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    It was a change of topic :)
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    do you want us to design a ProgPoW asic?
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    Yes, that would be great
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    btw I recommend watching our talk at ETC Summit Oct 4th, Vancouver
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    I have
    Let me watch it again to refersh my memory
    Sonia-Chen
    @Sonia-Chen
    I mean the upcoming one - October 4th 2019. Followup to 2018. The difference is that we have taped out now and there is no way back :)
    our goal was to have a working prototype machine at the conference, of course, but we didn't make it.
    Greerso
    @greerso
    so much for those "asic engineers. front-end, back-end, physical design, many people." eh?
    Peter Salanki
    @salanki
    Guys
    I figued it out. It is AMD and NVIDIA behind this after all:
    A M D
    D E F
    
    N V I D I A
    E L S E I A
    Bryant Eisenbach
    @fubuloubu
    Go home Peter, you're drunk 🤣
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    Why wouldn't it be?
    I mean, it wouldn't surprise me.
    They stand to benefit, right?
    I don't have any proof, just not sure why it would be considered laughable.

    @salanki

    Doing ProgPoW is an active choice to maintain the current landscape. Not doing ProgPoW is also an active choice. As long as people accept that doing nothing is not “maintaining the status quo” I’m good

    At this point I think we agree that it's a decision either way that will have consequences we accept.

    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter

    During the move of Zcash from GPU to ASICs we observed a large geographical centralization of miners in China, currently ~75-80% of the total Zcash network hashrate comes only from China (see https://explorer.zcha.in/statistics/miners). With ETH the split is currently at around 50%-50% between hashrate coming from China and the rest of the World.

    I guess I'm not sure why centralization of mining power is inherently a bad thing. I understand why abuse is a bad thing, but as I said earlier, having ProgPOW in our pockets and ready to deploy would act as a deterrent against ASIC miner abuse, because they would immediately get bricked. If we can prevent the abuse, I feel like it is safer.

    Looking at how effectively some ASIC manufacturers have spread conspiracy theories and mobilized the mob against ProgPoW

    Wtf, am I a mob to you? Is Bob Summerwill?

    The connection between BSV is there, we could be living in the version of the simulation with no connection, but that's not the case. And this isn't particularly inspiring either:
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter

    You are choosing to displace a highly distributed mining base, built on the backs of crazy amount of investments during the goldrush of 2017/2018.

    With all due respect @salanki I have no sympathy for GPU miner profits. You are all more or less Uber drivers to me—service providers. You serve our network because we pay you, and you are replaceable. And as we all know, replacing you was the plan all along. The only reason you haven't been replaced to date is because PoS is taking longer than expected.

    I hope you all choose to join as stakers when the time comes, but I couldn't care less what becomes of your GPU farms.
    Martin Holst Swende
    @holiman
    What's the net benefit of placing that service in the hands of whoever has the best backroom deals to obtain the next generateion asic's from china?
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    What's the risk?
    Martin Holst Swende
    @holiman
    That one entity mines ethereum, on their own controlling a super majority of all hashpower?
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    If it's 51% attacks... then why wouldn't keeping ProgPOW on deck be adequate to deter them?
    What is the maximum damage they could do undetected?
    They only get 1 shot before we switch to ProgPOW.
    Martin Holst Swende
    @holiman
    They could, and are, doing their best to disrupt our governance process and spread FUD and ad hominem attacks
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    You could say Kristy is doing the same. Ad hominem attacks are being levied in both directions.
    This is just politics man
    Everyone gets muddy
    Sorry to bring it into the holy all core devs cathedral
    Martin Holst Swende
    @holiman
    So, your stance is basically "what can go wrong", and make that as a ground for changing a policy that's been in ethereum from day one. I'm saying that "well, why find out" ? we can just stop it, now, and do what we already decided at least twice, and move forward with progpow. ethash is broken
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    Things have changed

    To quote myself from ACD:

    In other words, ASIC resistance at the dawn of Ethereum was a worthy goal, but the situation is much different when we already have an army of GPU miners, ProgPOW on deck, and PoS coming soon. I believe we're in a better, safer, position now to relax "full ASIC resistance" as a goal.

    And I don't think my stance is a nonchalant "what could go wrong" - my position is that we should be able to articulate the threat model we are defending against.
    Martin Holst Swende
    @holiman
    I don't think you understand how thorougly ethash is broken, and the efficiency gains that can be had from an asic
    Ameen Soleimani 👹
    @ameensol_twitter
    What I don't understand is what the maximum damage will be. We're saying "centralization risks" like we're scared of the boogyman in the dark.

    Kristy gets into one such attack here:

    Censorship attacks are where miners choose not to include transactions with certain properties — such as specific to and from addresses, or fees below a certain threshold. The attack is performed by selfish mining: a method where an attacker creates blocks, and build a private chain without telling others. Once the attacker’s chain is longer than the others, they proclaim it to the world. The public miners building on what they perceived to be the longest chain will automatically adopt theirs.

    So my question remains, what are the worst / most-likely attacks a miner could pull off if they knew they had 1 shot, that they could prepare undetected.