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Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
We can def change it, either the vocabulary or meaning behind it if we want.
Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
What is the problem with the status going back and forth?
The implied connotation is definitely not how I interpreted the intent of Last Call.
My understanding with Last Call was that it was meant as a way to get people to actually look at EIPs that were not under active iteration.
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
I guess there isn't a problem, but it just seems like last call loses some meaning if it is switched a lot. Draft status should take a long time compared to last call, otherwise you could declare last call before adoption.
Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
IIRC: Prior to Last Call, EIPs would go from "active iteration" to "final" without any step notifying people that "now is the time to look at this".
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Also I should note last call is probably assumed differently between core EIPs and ERCs.
For core EIPs you are right. ERCs do that less so I find.
Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
ERCs seem to all just never go to final. :P
Everyone just posts their half cocked ideas in an EIP and then implements them and deploys to production without any discussion... then people come by later to complain that the EIP is terrible and they are told "sorry, already in production, cannot change".
:rage:
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Yeahhh that is an issue. Not sure how to solve.
James Hancock
@MadeofTin
Yes, we should seperate the discussion as to when we are talking about what has happened historically, and what we see as how the process should work.

... then people come by later to complain that the EIP is terrible and they are told "sorry, already in production, cannot change".

Has this happened with Core EIPs?

Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
I don't think so, it is an ERC specific problem I believe.
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
No only ERCs afaik.
Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
And whatever node API layer changes are called (are they ERC?).
e.g., JSON-RPC methods.
How I think the process should work for Core EIPs (I think we should ignore ERCs for this discussion):
  1. EIP is created and submitted as a draft, potentially unfinished while the author iterates collaboratively with interested parties.
  2. Once the author is ready to propose the EIP to the wider world, they mark it as __ (currently called Last Call).
  3. People can subscribe to Last Call notifications (e.g., RSS feed) and provide feedback to EIPs that are in that stage.
    4a. The author disagrees with the proposed changes, status remains unchanged.
    4b. The author agrees with the changes and quickly makes them. Last Call timestamp should restart (maybe republish to RSS feed as well).
    4c. The author agrees with the changes, but realizes substantial work needs to be done or longer discussion. Status reverts to Draft.
We could have an arbitrary number of escalation stages, with a wider and wider audience for each stage.
Current escalation stages:
Pre-draft is "author working alone".
Draft is "author collaborating with specific parties they have reached out to."
Last Call is "author collaborating with anyone who cares about Ethereum governance."
Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
We could add more steps between Draft and Last Call if desired, where there are iteratively larger groups involved in the process. I'm uncertain how much this would help though, since I suspect relatively few people would subscribe to one but not the other.
James Hancock
@MadeofTin

Have you had a chance to read through martin's EIP-centric forking model?

I think we get many of the things you suggest through "Elligble for inclusion". The only difference is we don't have a way yet for the RSS to follow the stages of the EIP-centric pipeline.

Micah Zoltu
@MicahZoltu
No, have a link?
Is it long?
James Hancock
@MadeofTin
Should that be handled seperately, or use the Status explicitly.
Not really, let me find it
This would be for core-eips
The ACD blessing is a stage close to how you describe when something should go into last call
Alex Beregszaszi
@axic
There have been a couple of proposals to change names. I suggested to introduce a “Ready” state, which means a “Draft” is stable and ready for reviews. “Last Call” would be the actual last call of a “Ready" state.
Also proposed that we just rename “Accepted” to “Ready” and call it a day, because “Accepted” seems to be useless anyway.
PR is here: ethereum/EIPs#2279
James Hancock
@MadeofTin
I second that @axic . Saying something is "accepted", but then immediately explaing that it doesn't mean it is accepted into Fork has been confusing.
Alex Beregszaszi
@axic
Since support for RSS feeds has been removed from Firefox a year ago (see https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/live-bookmarks), how relevant is RSS still?
I’ve just learned now that it was removed after having searched for it in Firefox
Adrian Sutton
@ajsutton
RSS is still pretty widely used, especially by geeky people likely to understand EIPs. However it probably shouldn’t be the only format people can get notifications in. The RSS feed could be used as the source for email and twitter publishing fairly easily to give more options. There are a few services around that offer that kind of thing.
James Hancock
@MadeofTin
🧐🧐🧐
James Hancock
@MadeofTin

This is just a process question, but am I allowed to make PRs to EIPs I am not an author. Does that screw up the automerge-bot? Or, can an Editor still merge them?

It has got me thinking since I updated the Difficulty Bomb Delay with the Last Call Review Date.

Alex Beregszaszi
@axic
Automerge will just complain wait for an editor. It’s all good.
@ajsutton that email and tweet bot is a great idea
Tim Beiko
@timbeiko
+1 for tweet bots.
Adrian Sutton
@ajsutton
Well, with a bit of luck: https://twitter.com/EIPLastCall ifttt.com has been setup to post any new last call EIPs. But we won't know if it works until the next EIP goes to last call because it deliberately doesn't spam every post already in the feed. Slightly unfortunate for our use case. Set it up with all new accounts so can give the login details to someone like cat herders, EIP editors, EF or whoever we think makes sense.
Alex Beregszaszi
@axic
Caution: This account is temporarily restricted.
Adrian Sutton
@ajsutton
Huh. Apparently being honest that you’re a bit makes Twitter suspicious...
Alex Beregszaszi
@axic
"that you’re a bit” ?
Adrian Sutton
@ajsutton
Bot not bit sorry.
Adrian Sutton
@ajsutton
Twitter seems happier with the account now.
alet89
@alet89
Hi everyone, I'm Alex :) Me and my co-editor Marco have deployed an EIP for a new kind of ERC to use series of chained NFTs to store small file on chain, like front-end of dapps and so on, it's already working here robe.ninja... This is the EIP: ethereum/EIPs#2399 we're not familiar to the EIP process, how does it work to have a ERC number ready to be reviewed by the community? We can't wait to chat about it :)
Brent Allsop
@BrentAllsop

Hi Alex @alet89,

It’s great to have people proposing EIPs indicating the strength of the ethereum community. One of the steps of getting an EIP into production is building consensus around the idea. I want to introduce you to Canonizer.com, which is specifically designed for building and tracking consensus for things exactly like this.

Traditionally, people have used petitions to measure consensus. But petitions are static snapshots in time that can’t change once people begin signing. Canonizer provides a dynamic platform that allows for change and evolution of consensus as the discussion continues.

Canonizer is basically a wiki with camps that people can join. Once you join, you have editorial control and can object to changes that anyone proposes. All proposed changes go into a review for one week. If no supporters object, the changes go live on the site.

With this structure, people can argue for or against an EIP by joining the camp they support or creating a competing camp to make a counterargument. This enables you to track who is objecting and why, so you can know what is required to get them on board.

Currently, Canonizer.com is offering free consensus-building services to the Ethereum community. So if you have any interest in using Canonizer and our team of experts to help with your effort to build and track consensus around you EIP, let us know, and we can help in building the required definitive consensus for rapid acceptance.