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    axelay
    @axelay
    Evenin'
    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill
    Hey yo, @axelay!
    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill

    So just to get us started here, the intention of this channel is to have a public forum in which we can discuss potential options with regard to recovering funds which are "stuck" within smart contracts on the mainnet, either through bugs in external tools, bugs in smart contracts which have been triggered accidentally or maliciously, or through plain human error (ie. sending ETH to address 0x0).

    In many (all?) of these cases there is clear provenance and ownership of the funds. They just got into a bad spot where they cannot be retrieved with the existing protocol.

    @vbuterin created ethereum/EIPs#156 a year ago, and it covers some, but not all of these cases.

    It looks like @debris will be creating another EIP imminently, which would cover the Parity library deletion use-case, and offer a means of "resurrecting" selfdestruct-ed contracts.

    And maybe other have further proposals to bring to the table.

    Let's talk through the technical options here, creating EIPs as required for the various proposals.

    I think that given that we aren't looking at any STOLEN funds here and there is no ticking timebomb that we have a fantastic opportunity here to have a constructive dialog about how to make technical improvements to our platform which make such black holes much harder to create in the future (Solidity and EVM tweaks), to provide some means to recovery trapped funds - as long as we can do so in a way which is uniform and fair and not special case (not just "if address=xxx then recover), and can also use this opportunity to improve our signaling and governance mechanisms.

    For example ... Carbon Vote style coin vote mechanisms but with long lead times and blanket publicity, so nobody can say they didn't know or were not consulted. Preferably with some degree of obfuscation, so that people cannot identify who is voting which way. @wanderer got hammered for voting against the DAO fork very late, for example, because people worked out that the address corresponded to him. Cue accusations of whales trying to sway the "election". There is also probably some game theory in here which somebody better equipped than me could work through. DAO vote participation was very low because of the lost opportunity cost of tying up your votes early. Maybe a better way is lurking? @SilentCicero, @koeppelmann, @karlfloersch, @vladzamfir, @virgil others, have ideas?

    Ultimately, everyone will "vote" with the software they choose to run, but good signalling would certainly help.

    The other area where we could maybe use this opportunity to improve governance would be in terms of forums which aren't such cesspits for gaming and sock-puppeting - like Reddit and Twitter.

    Again, if we even had some simple chat forum, where coin stake was used as a filter (or flair), it would be hugely useful for signaling. Think Reddit karma, but with ETH stake.

    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill
    ^ @cdetrio @souptacular @thehighfiveghost @karalabe @axic @chriseth @gcolvin @chfast @winsvega @flj @obscuren @gavofyork @tgerring @zelig @CJentzsch @Gustav-Simonsson @zsfelfoldi @bas-vk @holiman @gluk256 @ebuchman @jarradh @heikoheiko @Dexaran @LefterisJP @subtly @romanman @arkpar @frozeman @pirapira @VoR0220 @jaekwon @yann300 @LianaHus @Genoil @nicksavers @mancoast @tymat @ethers @smartbitcoin @ryepdx @konradkonrad @janx @pipermerriam @joeykrug @gsalgado @czepluch @maurycyp @MicahZoltu @luclu @hiddentao @evertonfraga @alexvandesande @greggdourgarian @MaiaVictor @sepehrmohamadi @tcoulter @iurimatias @johnmcdowall @aakilfernandes @simondlr @danfinlay @kumavis @tymat @tjade273 @amiller @el33th4x0r @pdaian @bl4ck5un @bertani @sdtsui @sdtsui @frankiebee @hermanjunge @tayvano @kvhnuke @axelay
    Lefteris Karapetsas
    @LefterisJP
    Why not just wait for the creation of an EIP and simply discuss any proposed solution there? I find chats more difficult to follow when compared to mailing-list like discussions offered by github issues.
    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill
    ^ @jacogr @tomusdrw @NikVolf @rphmeier @keorn @ngotchac @General-Beck @jesuscript @5chdn @splix @whysoserious @chrisfranko @kobigurk @stskeeps @kaeptnjoda @hitchcott @KenKappler @aeronbuchanan
    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill

    @LefterisJP When we have concrete EIPs, the discussion around those specific proposals is best as comments on those EIPs, yes.

    But we need a neutral, public forum for discussing the relative merits and pros and cons of the proposals outside of the EIPs themselves. All too often we have seen comment-threads on specific EIPs saying "This is a shit proposal. I think we should do X, Y, Z instead because A, B, C".

    Great - bring that here if you have ill-formed thoughts that we should be chasing other paths. Then make a new EIP if it takes shape enough to be viable on its own.

    This channel is intended for general discussion around the set of EIPs under consideration.

    @gcolvin has also repeatedly pointed out that mailing lists are better for this kind of strategical discussion, outside of given EIPs. @jpitts is investigating communication options.

    See this? See the date?

    https://blog.ethereum.org/2015/09/18/ethereum-comms-announcement/

    We still haven't sorted our comms channels out.

    My thought is that we probably need:

    1. Mailing lists for archived, searchable, truly decentralized strategic discussions
    2. Use Github comments on EIPs for discussion around specific proposals for moving the protocol forward.
    3. Some chat mechanism, for day-to-day interaction and very engaged, direct conversations. We are largely using Gitter for right now, but maybe that should be Riot or Rocketchat.

    Top-to-bottom is a strategic to tactical spectrum.

    And then you have gibbering monkeys unfiltered noise in Reddit and Twitter. Hopefully we can decentralize those in the near future and build our own, with suitable sock-puppet protection.

    @LefterisJP So you could just opt out of (3) chat if you found it unproductive.
    Lefteris Karapetsas
    @LefterisJP

    This channel is intended for general discussion around the set of EIPs under consideration.

    Hmmm but we already have a channel just for this purpose: https://gitter.im/ethereum/EIPs

    The name of this channel seems to imply it's to discuss recovery of some ETH (presumably the suicided parity wallet?) and not any specific EIP.

    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill

    No - it is to discuss the subset of EIPs which are related to various types of trapped ether. Mainly covered in EIP156, plus the pending EIP from Marek, and maybe more.

    That discussion could happen in https://gitter.im/ethereum/EIPs, but is likely to be contentious and of very broad interest. Nick suggested a new channel specifically for this subset of EIPs to avoid ruining the signal-to-noise ratio in the existing channels.

    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill
    @kjameslubin @liorsaar1 @batlinal @marleyg @patrickmn @conor10 @joelburget @tylobban @jpmsam @juanfranblanco @shahankhatch @christianlundkvist @danfinlay @ililic @jeffscottward @jmlubin @jo-tud @juanfranblanco @maurelian @mbeylin @niran @pelle @petermunnings @pospi @raineorshine @rverbee @rusthomas @ryanreich @hughlang @jakelang @s-matthew-english @samcassatt @simonlapscher @tcsiwula @timjlowe @tueric @tyndallm @wuehler @zigguratt @zmitton @dominicwilliams @timohanke @hdiedrich @leithaus @brianbehlendorf @christo4ferris @compleatang @zramsay @benjaminbollen @j-h-scheufen @silasdavis @shuangjj @phonikg @ryan-orr

    OK - done with invites.

    Does that make sense, @LefterisJP? Or do you think that all discussion around EIPs should just be directly in https://gitter.im/ethereum/EIPs?

    Are you in favor of mailing lists over Gitter for this kind of strategic discussion? Greg's point is that archiving and discoverability of these kind of WHY questions is crucially important. He can search through years of dialog on all kinds of tricky edge-cases within the C++ standard, because everything was done via mailing lists. But he has no clue how decisions were reached on various points within Ethereum because the communication is so disorganized and hard to search through.

    chriseth
    @chriseth
    Bob, do you really think that mentioning every single person you know in the Ethereum ecosystem is a good way to handle this?
    Bob Summerwill
    @bobsummerwill
    Yes.
    Would you seek to exclude people from this crucial discussion, Christian? I am sure that only the interested subset will participate. There is nobody in that list of people who is a bystander. These are people with a very active stake.
    @mkalinin @Nashatyrev Sorry, Harmony team. Forgot you.
    axelay
    @axelay
    Thanks for the intro Bob - let's get this into the open
    Rocky Fikki
    @rfikki
    My first few questions are why does it seem pertinent(more critical) when close nit participants/developers have issues with smart contracts that we need hard forks / soft forks in order to recover ether from? Why is there not any of this urgency and movement when less known projects / teams have issues that need attending with regards to locked/lost ether. When are issues with smart contracts too small to be considered for such fixing?
    Greg Colvin
    @gcolvin
    We are try to make all lost ether recoverable. It won't be easy.
    Tim Siwula
    @timxor
    Any ideas or mechanisms on how to recover all that frozen eth?
    Greg Colvin
    @gcolvin
    EIP 156 is one. Another is to allow the owner of a suicided contract to replace it. The latter presents difficulties because the new contract will have all the powers of the old one, but not necessarily the same behavior.
    Greg Colvin
    @gcolvin
    So if the contract controls someone else's ETH, it gets control of that ETH, but cannot be counted on to return it to its owner. This is arguably better than having the ETH locked away completely. But there are other cases that are worse than leaving the owners ETH locked up. @Arachnid can explain those better than I. I've wondered whether it would be possible to recover a copy of the blockchain before the latest lossage and analyze whether any such cases actually exist, but it's beyond my skill.
    And that's all I have to offer for now @tcsiwula.
    Tim Siwula
    @timxor
    Hmm pretty intresting. Do you what the steps were to recover ether from this smart contract a few months ago? https://etherscan.io/address/0x1dba1131000664b884a1ba238464159892252d3a
    @gcolvin
    Greg Colvin
    @gcolvin
    No, I don't. That is, I don't know the technical details. It was a white hat operation, which generally involves exploiting bugs in a contract to get funds that have been or could be stolen to a safe place.
    That is not what we are up to.