These are chat archives for ethereum/homestead-guide

13th
Mar 2016
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 00:24
Awesome. I’ll review faq content again tomorrow. Maybe a little tonight.
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 01:47
I've committed some ETHDEV and legal cleanup at Ming's instruction, following a request by @zelig on the internal Foundation Skype channel.
Just trying to rebuild the docs, and getting a weird server failure.
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 02:02
Eeek - https://github.com/rtfd/readthedocs.org/issues/2002#issuecomment-195849983
Looks like multiple people are hitting this right now. Early reports said it was intermittent, so I will try repeatedly to rebuild.
500 is an "internal server error". Eeek.
http://www.checkupdown.com/status/E500.html
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 03:04
@bobsummerwill great news about the disclaimer. Also i noticed there is no links or any instructions about installation at all in the docs!! is it still WIP?
bob please do not delete the old refs just yet
it can wait man
please resubmit 128 with only the other 3 commits
I am still picking stuff up from the old docs
a lot of good content there didnt make it actually
thx ;)
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 03:11
Still WIP, @zelig. Have been doing a huge volume of work on the C++ ones inside http://docs.ethereum.org/en/latest/ethereum-clients/cpp-ethereum/installing-binaries/index.html and http://docs.ethereum.org/en/latest/ethereum-clients/cpp-ethereum/building-from-source/index.html which I will link through to. And then links for other clients.
OK - will undo the old-docs delete.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 03:23
thanks great job on c++
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 03:34
Thanks! Still got a bunch more to do there!
Just working out how to do those internal links for the Introduction page.
I hope to god that readthedocs fix that bug or we're fucked.
What time is it with you, Viktor? Are you just starting your Sunday? Are you going to be online and working for a while? Got to put my kids to bed, but will be carrying on in a bit.
I'll be looking at the whole of TurboEthereum guide and pulling the good bits across.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 03:37
hey
well it is 11.37am here in central sulawesi
from tomorrow I will be in thailand gmt+7
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 03:45
Very nice! How long have you been in that part of the world?
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 03:46
in asia-australia since dec
escaping winter :)
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 03:50
We should plan on worst-case scenario for readthedocs, which is that they don't fix this bug in time for Pi Day. In that case we would need somebody to just do a clean "make html" on their machine, and then to upload the generated HTML to some web server and point there instead. Do we have a good candidate server for that right now?
Was it @tgerring we coordinated with for the redirect?
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 04:48
Yes @tgerring coordinated the redirect with me. If it is near pi day and it still isn't fixed I will work it out with him or others with Ethereum server access.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 05:09
so what is the bug? did i miss something?
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 05:17
Clicking build on readthedocs always fails.
So we cannot update the website.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 05:26
by the way @bobsummerwill internal references can be done in two ways:
  • writing _`This is a title of a section` creates a clickable crossreference. It is called implicit reference cos it is implicitly defined by all sectioning markup and the resulting crossref will just have the entire title
  • if the reference text needs to be different than the full section title, an explicit reference is required: this is done by writing .. mylabel:: in front of the section referenced: see http://www.sphinx-doc.org/en/stable/markup/inline.html and write :ref:`about clients <mylabel>`
  • AFAIK there is no way to use implicit references as labels in a link which is i think is a major pain in the ass.
This convoluted and counterintuitive syntax is really really annoying in sphinx
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 05:31
Thanks, @zelig! I'll just do a little PR to fix my absolute URL "sin", and to revector the links to the individual clients from the table in the "Installing a Client" page.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 05:33
cool and in general be generous with cross refs they are really really good for the reader when they browse to be able to hop to relevant further info with one click
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 07:01
phew guys now that i am going through the whole thing I am really tempted to reorganise the docs once again :)
I know it is all my fault, the ethereum ecosystem chapter was my idea :)
It seemed like a good idea
but now it actually reads pretty poortly that topical info is scattered around as a result
could i have your permission to redistribute its contents where they belong (wallets etc to accounts chapter, mining resources to mining, etc etc)? And recap ecosystem as a (sub)section in the intro reiterate that ethereum is really an ecosystem with all these tools, giving a reference to the appropriate sections.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 07:06
It really makes much more sense now that I read the whole thing
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 07:09
Good for me. Go for it!
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 07:13
I'm game. Go for it :)
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 07:21
OMG. Poked readthedocs and it worked. Hurrah!
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 07:26
yay
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 08:37
Please review:
"Fixing internal links for Ethereum clients, plus a couple of other cleanups"
ethereum/homestead-guide#130
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 10:38
"Completed building from source instructions from Windows and started on Linux"
ethereum/homestead-guide#131
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 11:32
reviewing @bobsummerwill
what? we still have webbed umbrellas? i thought you pushed through the whole rename ordeal dude!
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 11:43
both merged
as for #130 I am not sure of this new sectioning, will see and may amend
also the ecosystem infrastructure part is left with another table showing the clients. what was your plan with that?
I guess we should just keep yours. we will figure out soon
I jump on accounts and contracts and develop chapters, glossary and FAQ
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 13:01
good morning. Glad that the RTD problem has been resolved
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:24
Hello everyone! So I'll be writing for the next 3-4 hours at least. Anybody else going to be active during that period?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:25
I’m available. What do you think needs attention? Maybe I can be help out
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:27

@zelig De-webification is ongoing. My focus right now is on fixing naming in docs (ethereum/webthree-umbrella#250), and I should have purged the vast majority of those by Homestead. We deferred actually reorganizing the repositories until after Homestead, because of the broad impact on the build files, automation, etc. That is captured as ethereum/webthree-umbrella#251, in the milestone targeting March 24th. I can't wait.

You will have seen this target graph, right?
http://doublethinkco.github.io/webthree-umbrella-cross/images/target_dependency_graph.svg
Though we'll actually be a better even than than, severing the dependency from Solidity to cpp-ethereum as well, so "eth" and "Solidity" will become peers, with Mix and AlethZero/AlethOne depending on both.
So for now, I guess your package should have eth, AlethOne, AlethZero and Mix.
We're working to kill AlethOne and AlethZero, probably by making their functionality into Mist plugins/DAPPs. Also, for Mix, we're exploring using Electron, to see if we can make that into plugins to Mist, Visual Studio Code, Atom, etc.

Good to see you, @hughlang!
Maybe you could just do a high-level triage, and see whether the sections make sense. Also looking again at the Introduction seems sensible. That is the single document which is the most important of all, because it is the one which people are likely to read first, and sets the tone for everything else.

Especially with all the froth around $1B and Bitcoin-rivalry there is right now, I think it really important that newcomers to Ethereum reading these documentation come away with the impression of "Possibility-enabling world computer", not "Bitcoin, but better".

hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:31
I’ll see what I can do. The What is Ethereum page has gotten super long. I don’t know if we can change that
I think starting with a simple explanation and gradually going deeper would be ideal
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:33
Yes, that is way too long, isn't it? We shouldn't really have any content which is more than a page or two long. Massive scrolling pages kind of defeat the purpose of the navigation tree which we have available to us.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:34
true. I will suggest some changes on my fork. Possibly upload an html build for review
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:35
Something else we should probably do today is delete (or just hide) "The Homestead Documentation Initiative" page, because that is for our benefit. Might be possible just to remove that one-liner from the index page, and live with the warning. That way anybody can one-liner it back on locally if they need.
We should be starting with "Introduction" by now.
Another easy one is doing another pass on the Contributors page, which I think may need one of two people adding, and to ask the pseudonynomous people if they want to be "unmasked". Some want to be anonymous. Others just haven't been arsed to add their names as well as their tags on their accounts.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:38
right! I will figure that out
gotta make a list for myself
I think the other ethereum clients content is ok for now. I don’t have anything else to add since I have not used them much. Just geth
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:42
Yeah - other clients will do for now. Thanks for those! I certainly have vast swathes of stuff which is plain missing which needs my focus.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:42
sure thing
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:43
And I need to finish the "Installing a Client" page, and get the line right between that and the clients section. And as-per @zelig above, it looks like we have overlap with that and ecosystem too. I will look at that too at the same time as the Installing.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:45
@zelig mentioned that he would attack FAQ. If so, I will leave that alone
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 16:47
@Souptacular @bobsummerwill if we want to generate the docs ourselves, we can put the result on a CDN with HTTPS and skip the server
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 16:50
Hi, @tgerring! Yes, that would work too, but it looks like readthedocs has got fixed in the meantime. What remains to be answered is whether we stick with http://docs.ethereum.org or go with a new domain. The whole "is this community or Foundation", liability, disclaimer, etc. mess which blew up yesterday.
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 16:51
I think we have a tendency to over complicate things. We have a working solution, let's go with that and iterate as we see fit
I
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 16:57
So is it docs.ethereum.org?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 17:04
Will that be the official site?
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 17:07
is there a better suggestion?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 17:08
Not from me. I like it.
Easiest for users to find
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 17:18
yeah, I agree
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 17:24
OK - you can have the conversation with Ming, then, @tgerring :-)
I've sunk way too many hours which I didn't have to spare into this already!
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 17:39
that sucks
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 17:41

Well - maybe it is a 5 min conversation and we go with what we have? We've got to have the conversation, though.

Please review:
Moved "The Homestead Documentation Initiative" to the end of the TOC
ethereum/homestead-guide#132

We all need to be on the same page. It became apparent just yesterday that we weren't all on the same page.
It does suck.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:38
Will the RTD link still be valid? The Homestead blog post links to there https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/02/29/homestead-release/
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:48
@zelig In github, I see you have a branch with edits from this morning. Is that almost ready for PR? I have some edits that I want to make in the Intro sections and would like to avoid conflicts
The final-push branch
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:49
hey
nice spotting
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:49
hi
:)
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:50
yes ok i push what i got please someone review then merge
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:50
Maybe you can just add this intro text in the-homestead-release
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:50
i move over to later chapters then so you can have it
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:50
Homestead is the second major version of the Ethereum platform and is the first production release of Ethereum. It includes several protocol changes and a networking change that provides the ability to do further network upgrades. The first version of Ethereum, called the Frontier release, was essentially a beta release that allowed developers to learn, experiment, and begin building Ethereum decentralized apps and tools.
Feel free to tweak it
The page needed something user friendly to start with
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:51
i rewrote that bit a bit
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:55
cool
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:55
#134
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 18:57
Looks ok to me. Travis is complaining tho
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 18:58
for Mix, we're exploring using Electron, to see if we can make that into plugins to Mist, Visual Studio aCode, Atom, etc.
^ this is awesome
@hughlang @bobsummerwill as for what is ethereum being too long
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:00
yes?
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:00
although i dont mind it being longa
since i wanna get rid of ecosystem chapter
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:01
i’ll try to not destroy what’s there
it’s in decent shape
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:02
plus need a way to introduce the dapp/web3 vision
i was thinking
cutting what is ethereum into 3 pieces
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:03
i was thinking something similar
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:03
and put it in the intro
ethereum ecosystem
ethereum community
and web3 dapps
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:05
yeah community links should be easy to find.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:05
we got that covered
would come flat in intro as elaboration on what is ethereum
not sure
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:08

RE: Looking to switch to Electron. Yes, it would be very cool if we can get there. Essentially we would drop all GUI elements in the C++ codebase, because cross-platform C++ GUIs are a total pain in the ass.

We've basically got "eth", which will end up as a headless EVM. jsconsole to be removed imminently, because "geth attach" works, and Chriseth also made a tiny node.js console which does just the same, but without having to build the whole of V8 (https://github.com/ethereum/ethereum-console).

And we have Solidity, which will stay as is, but be entirely decoupled from eth.

And that leaves us with "productivity stuff" in Mix and Aleth which should really just be optional plugins to Mist. I really hope we can make it happen. It would be such a better and simpler setup.

Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:08
i'd like to rewrite what is ethereum completely
but it low priority
substantial chapter are more important
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:09
@bobsummerwill Do you have time to review #134?
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:09
i was really disappontedd to see
the mining chapter lost every thing
no linux instructions
nothing on cpu mining details
nothing on geth internal gpu miner wtf?
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:11
"lost" as in nobody has done the work to bring these docs to the same level as we had at Frontier?
RE: 134. On it.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:12
i was really hoping someone at least does linux like its done for windows
plenty of links were given
heres a new one
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:13
yeah, it’s all windows.
unbalanced
@bobsummerwill how come YOU up alrEady?
for me its pi am now
will be travelling most of tomorrow folks
need to be offline for flights
will be working on accounts and dev and glossary
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:17
I'm in Vancouver. It's midday here.
So 134 ready to go, barring on URL which looks wrong to be.
Please fix if required and merge-at-will :-)
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:18
@hughlang feelfree to jump on the FAQ
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:18
At what point do you plan to fold ecosystem into the Intro section? After your PR, I was going to do some things in the Intro
Oh, sure. I can do FAQ
@bobsummerwill Is it ok if there are Travis errors?
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:18
Did you have anything else "brewing", @zelig, or is that you done for right now?
@hughlang Yeah - looks like it's fucked. Let's ignore it for now.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:19
ok
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:19
Maybe one of us can fix it at some stage, but it's a nice-to-have. We just need to crank through the content for right now, eh?
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 19:19
Hey guys, I'll have some time to jump back into docs in about 6-7 hours I hope
Anyone need reviews?
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:19
feel free to fold in ecosystem after bob and you figure out
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:20
I might, though I suspect that in about 6-7 hours we'll all be kind of done, and will be revising what is already there.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:20
yeah, i have a few hours before my evening schedule takes over
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:21
@zelig We should replace that section with a link to "Client Implementations". I plan to do that.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:21
ok
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 19:21
Sounds good
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:22
lets do an infrastructure synopsis in the intro
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:22
I also need to work out whether that table in "Installing a Client" should move to that page too. I think so.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:23
Somewhere in Ecosystem/Infrastructure we might mention cloud services for BaaS. Azure and AWS
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:24
cross referencing sections: clients, blkchain explorers (this will move to dev or accouts and transaction chapter
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 19:24
And development tools like ether.camp
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 19:25
Good to merge ethereum/homestead-guide#134, @zelig? I'd like to grab that, and see where everything is now sitting. And will be building on top of it, as will @hughlang.
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 19:25
network within basics, mining infra under mining
ether/exhange/wallets now nicely under accounts
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 20:33
Anyone mind if I make “What is Ethereum” the top-level section in that page? That will change the left nav as well. I think it is more solutions-oriented. And then I will make “A Next Generation Blockchain” the first section in that page. After that, I will rename the What is Ethereum subsection to something else.
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 20:51
Go for it. Given the handful of hours we have left it is all hands on deck!
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 20:51
thanks!
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 20:51
I've got the Installing a Client still to finish, and then will slap some more content into the C++ one tonight and I'm done.
I doubt I will have time to do anything else. But that's cool. We can keep on iterating on this stuff forever.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 20:57
I’m doing simple structural changes. I don’t feel the need to rewrite content now unless it is clearly wrong or broken.
I think you’ll like the changes.
submitted #138
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:00
Lovely. Merged!
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:01
on your local checkout, you might need to: rm -rf build/html before make html
Otherwise the nav will not be correct
thanks!
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:06
OK - thanks. That caching issue on the nav is weird, eh?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:07
yeah, stubborn
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:09
You still around @zelig? Just going to line-up a PR to add "community contribute" language to the very front page, as per Ming.
There is further post-Homestead to get us to a "happy place" WRT officialness and so, but with the edits I made yesterday, plus a disclaimer, we're good to "ship" at http://docs.ethereum.org, which is good. Most end-users probably won't even notice the later "legal tweaks".
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:11
I still plan to work on FAQ. If we think it’s needed.
I really think there are a half dozen FAQs out there with more legitimate questions
I just forget where
And I’m juggling other work. Not ideal
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:24
Added "this is a community project" language on front page:
ethereum/homestead-guide#139
This look good, guys?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:25
Yeah that looks great.
By the way, I’ve been meaning to ask how I got placed at the top of the Contributors page among the coordinators. Possibly because I was one of the early names added when the first pages were getting added.
Do we need to move some names around to make it reflect the actuals?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:31
Definitely Bob has played a big part
Nonetheless, congrats all around for making this happen!
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:35
Should that just be @zelig and @Souptacular? I think you just got in that top-section because in some message either @zelig or @Souptacular mentioned that the three of you were running things. Feel free to "downgrade" yourself, if you feel that would be more accurate. And everybody else is just in alphabetical order of surname, which I think is best. No need to try to "rank" contributions, eh?
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:37
Yeah, that sounds fine. I felt awkward about it
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:37
We should give those 4 pseudononyomous people a last chance to unmask too, and double-check we 're not missing anybody from https://github.com/ethereum/homestead-guide/graphs/contributors. There should be 27 people.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:38
just counted. there are 27
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 21:38
We have 27 people on the contributors pagr
Yeah - think we're good, so just moving you, and giving those 4 people a last chance to be named. Do you want to make a PR for that, Hugh? Just your move in the PR, and then we can comment on that PR with the people's handles.
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 21:40
#140
unfortunately that’s in my fork, so fixing the other 4 will probably be another PR
or i make the change when we have the info
Bob Summerwill
@bobsummerwill
Mar 13 2016 22:25

Hey, @klmoney, @LiteBit, @azulmarino and @madhancr!

Last chance for any of who want to "unmask" before Homestead, so that your contributions to the documentation are associated with your true names.

Understand completely if you are intentionally pseudonymous. Just want to give you the opportunity if you want it.

See http://docs.ethereum.org/en/latest/introduction/contributors.html. Thanks!

Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 23:17
I'm flying soon. Bob no way we reach anby kind
Of ready state today
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 23:18
have a good flight
Viktor Trón
@zelig
Mar 13 2016 23:18
Don't stress about it. It's work in progress
hughlang
@hughlang
Mar 13 2016 23:18
yup
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 23:51
@zelig @Souptacular @bobsummerwill is anyone working on inlining the Go information? don't have the coordination doc link handy, maybe stick it in /topic ?
Hudson Jameson
@Souptacular
Mar 13 2016 23:57
@bobsummerwill I'm not sure who put my name on top on contributors/organziers. I agree it should be all one list.q
@tgerring what do you mean?
Taylor Gerring
@tgerring
Mar 13 2016 23:58
not sure if someone is working on doing something similar for Go