These are chat archives for everyvote/lounge

23rd
Mar 2015
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:41
sweet
there we go
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:42
hrey hrey
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:43
hello
nice!
this has a beautiful UI
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:43
yeah it's pretty nice

supports markdown too

halla halla halla

Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:44
Haha, yeah this might be one of those things I won't be able to live without now
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:44
strike through
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:44
strike out
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:44
code
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:44
ooo edit within 10 minutes of sending - booyah
shows read by too
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:45
do u see this message?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:46
yuuup
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:47
so when you guys started it wasn't an angular app right?
was angular out in 2012
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:48
It was an idea for a long time, then Mitch tried it in Django
the angular repo is pretty recent-- probably last fall I think
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:49
it was Django for NIU Student Association election in Oct 2013
we're taking a different approach this time though...i basically slapped that together as crudely as i could so it would seem usable for Fall 2013 elections
NIU SA actually used it, but only 6 out of 40 candidates actually logged in and uploaded a profile picture
i don't blame them. i'm surprised as many as 6 did, in retrospect
it was sloppy
it also made assumptions about user participation that we are trying to avoid now
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:52
also, some of the practices in django and similar frameworks, while rapid, are pretty rigid for custom UI/UX
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:53
thats great that people used it
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:54
it was definitely insightful.
albeit, insightful by lack of adoption most of all...
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:54
was the idea to have students vote via the site too?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:54
that's kind of always a possibility, but no not for that election
student elections often have an online voting portal
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:55
that is a big can of worms too
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:55
so we could easily link people to an online voting portal
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:55
lots of hot debate over security and online voting stuffs
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:55
yea
we can make it secure
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:56
well, i imagine we'd want to piggy-back on an existing secure online voting system
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 02:57
and create/contribute it if it doesn't exist
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:57
some exists currently?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:57
not real mature ones...
This one looks good https://vote.heliosvoting.org/
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:58
written in python
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 02:58
It's a big can of worms like Vince says though. Online voting is definitely on the roadmap, but it's across the ocean on another continent right now...
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 02:59
yeah in the future do you think we'll be able to vote for president online?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:00
hah good question
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:00
I think the technology is there but the public literacy is not
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:00
i think it's inevitable. i have no idea how soon though...there's a lot of questions to be answered, a lot of bureaucracy and techno-phobia to wrestle with...
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:01
in South Korea, residents are issued private/public keys for identity allegedly
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:01
sweet
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:01
they're more likely to have an online voting component than the united states
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:02
it seems to me it will happen eventually.
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:02
anyways, I think a big part of the process mitch and I have gone through over the years is determining the scope of what we want and how it fits in with everything else
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:03
so what is that process?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:03
the original day-0 idea of everyvote was this huge behemoth all-in-one app that organizes your political life
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:03
haha
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:03
was nice, but ultimately naive
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:04
That's right. It still is a dream of sorts, but unreachable due to limitations on the data available, and undesirable for various reasons
One undesirable aspect is a "one-stop-shop" solution for politics sounds like a monopoly/monarchy...
Now we're trying to use the principle of dogfooding
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:06
i believe you guys are really smart
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:06
Dogfooding seems to me like the most constructive approach to making an app...if you design it with yourself as the end user in mind, then you'll be able to constantly reevaluate if the app is moving in the direction you want
haha
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:07
it seems like a productive way to build an app i agree
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:08
it's hard for me to stick to dogfooding sometimes though. my imagination for features will move faster than my fingers can code them...
and it's not just coding them, it's also needing time to test our original hypotheses before moving onto a new feature.
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:09
yea building features has that instant reward / feedback effect
effect or affect -- i'm not sure which one to use in that context
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:10
as a former ACT tutor, i'll say "effect"
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:10
great
so do you believe that your original hypotheses has been tested?
and if so what were the results?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:10
well, no not really
what we have now is an entry into the Knight Foundation News Challenge
a prototype. mostly just a visual and semi-interactive example of the platform
but what we have isn't really obviously useful to us...
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:11
if you win that, what happens?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:12
well, presumably we would receive some funding to help us spend more hours dedicated to the project
work less hours at our day jobs, have more time for everyvote related projects
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:12
that's exciting
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:13
anyway, to make the prototype something actually useful for us...right now an idea we have is to create an election page for each of us with the app
that would have all of our candidates
that could be auto-populated via API like Google Civic Information
but also we'd need the ability to add candidates that may be missing from those APIs...
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:13
and that relates directly to the dog.* method
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:13
yeah
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:14
well if we'd like t use the format gives us, then we could just create candiates that would be in that same data format
candidates*
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:14
in my mind, i'd see this feature growing someday into a way for users to go to everyvote.org, type in their address, click "create election page", then seeing all of their candidates in one place, and being able to share a list of who they're voting for there
yeah
i'm not sure about how the data formats relate to popolo right now...i don't know anything about Google Civic and open standards...
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:15
well, that opens up the open/data can of worms--
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:15
yeah
i mean the question is are we going to have to transform the data we get from google?
which wouldn't be hard
just a task
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:16
yeah it would be best to transform the data from google/votemart/others into a common format like Popolo
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:16
JSON
?
Popolo?
do support
do they*
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:17
I'm personally not ready to go into that yet, while the transformation wouldn't be "hard" the resulting architecture isn't so clear
Popolo is a json friendly spec, yes
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:18
yeah transforming the data and all that would require a whole system / engine to be buit
built*(
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:18
indeed
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:18
[kind of off topic, but relevant] for this one app I built I did something similar
Extract, transform, load
This message was deleted
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:19
Yep, ETL
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:20
it was an interesting challenge for me at the time
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:20
something like that could be done for this potentially
there are lots of questions that pop up though-- where is the data being stored, how do we handle upstream changes?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:21
Personally I'm thinking we can make productive steps in the short-term by making some successful Google Civic API calls, and figuring out how to transform the data to fit our templates.
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:21
and there are features of the app that I don't think have been flushed out yet which are needed to answer those questions
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:21
But there a number of big questions to be answered
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:22
some type of database we'll need
mysql, etc..
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:22
So maybe should start making a list of those big questions
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:22
even mysql might be overkill for my tastes-- maybe sqlite or a flat file
not working with big data
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:23
the "updater" service that we would be build would compare our data to the data we've pulled.
i'm interesting in exploring new technologies
sqlite
but yeah the questions to be answered
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:27
I think tomorrow I'll start adding things to the Github Issue Tracker
to try and map things out, keep track of what needs more work
i may tonight actually...
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:28
who does the DNS for everyvote.org
Cloudflare?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:29
namecheap
but yeah, not entirely sure about how an ETL will fall into place yet
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:30
yeah
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:30
my dogfooding use case actually has less to do with that aspect of it
Mitch and I sort of have different ideas which can work on a common platform
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:31
ok
yeah i was just talking.. not suggesting that we do things in any particular wa
way*
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:31
I gotcha
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:31
cool
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:32
My goal is that I want more involvement in poltics-- especially local level stuff
and even more specifically I'm interested in effecting friends/family
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:32
Right now, I want to make a list of all my candidates on an election page, and select who I'm voting for, add description texts (optionally), and share my candidate list over social media.
when I say description texts i mean explanation texts...a comment about why I am voting for or not voting for this person
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:33
and I don't think that can be done by just making a list of candidates and making it look nice
aye,, the non threaded nature of this chat is going to get confusing fast
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:33
the @scvnc helps
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:33
Well, no, but I'm thinking a good looking list of candidates is a constructive starting point to grow from
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:34
yeah, but I don't want to have to type that-- ux issue there
with chat in general
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:34
yeah chat is linear
when you say candidates, what do you mean? for what election specifically?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:35
anyways, so the idea is a way of arranging the candidates you care about, 'tagging' them with issues, and sharing a customized ballot to friends/family
and the social clout you hold with friends/family may help them get involved
because they're too lazy and busy otherwise
any election
and at least for me, state/local
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:36
gotcha
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:37
I'm eligible to vote in federal / state / county / township / local / metropolitan water districts / school districts...
All public elections
plus voting on the judges
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:37
and I don't want to depend on an API to give me the data
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:37
it's not clear to me how much of this data will be available via Google's API
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:38
so how will we get the data we need?
by hand?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:38
and yeah, there's a great likelihood it will be incomplete
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:38
sort of, yes
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:38
i'd personally like a hybrid feature
i'd like to type my address in
autopopulate
then research to see who is missing
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:38
google civics / votesmart is pretty decent, but falls short with details at the local levels
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:38
and add them
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:39
in the case of NIU, no way those elections are going to be on google civics
there has to be at least one person who cares to do the research and get the information entered
"grooms" the information
technically, I have all I want for most elections I care about-- it's called http://ballotpedia.org
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:41
Vince, I don't expect an easy answer right now, but what if you create a list of your candidates, and someone who lives in the exact same voting districts as you wants to create a list of your candidates, how would this be handled?
If you already submitted the missing candidate data, would this other person get to benefit from your data, have it autopopulate for them?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:42
So, whoever 'owns' the election will provide the candidates that will be on the ballot
there will be an official ballot list of all candidates
rephrase
there will be a 'master' list of all ballot-official candidates
this data could be thinly populated by an API
I don't think it should be by default
the 'owner' of the election could choose to pull in candidates from api data
again this isn't big data-- it's like 40 people entries from a third party api
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:44
yeah
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:45
the api data should be a tool for the election owner to leverage
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:45
Who would own the election?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:45
In the case of my local elections last fall for the town of Kearney, NE-- I would
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:45
I take it you would be the owner of an election page that has all the candidates for your next election?
Ok, would this same election page have your state / federal / judicial election info too?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:46
no
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:46
or would there be a separate election page for each
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:46
I'm not thinking that richly
this is just an election
one election, one organization
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:46
ok
this seems like from a social sharing standpoint, the data will be disjointed and in too many different places
like, ultimately i'd like to share a list of all of my candidates in my next government election
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:47
Yes
I would take the role of election owner and election ambassador
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:48
that's not to say it isn't a logical next step from a development standpoint, though
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:48
as the role of an election owner, I would provide the official ballot list
as the role of an election ambassador, I would share my opinion on the candidates with my friends/family
and they could do the same
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:48
well i meant, ALL of my candidates, local / township / state / etc, in one convenient list
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:49
oh
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:49
would i have to share 5 separate lists?
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:49
If they're all on the same ballot-- same election?
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:49
honestly i may be conceiving of the Election entity differently
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:50
I'm trying to work with the current model of elections and changing the way we intereact with peers about politics
that is my interest
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:52
yeah i like that. i'm mostly trying to conceive of the UI and what the process of adding this info would be like.
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:52
2014 elections last year, we voted for state senators, mayor, some other local figureheads, and voted on a new local tax
the scope of the election was on many different levels, state county local
but it was one election
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:53
ok
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:53
I suppose this would be a problem with duct-taping an election to an organization
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:53
ah ok. i was thinking that an Election would be like, there
there's the Federal Election, the State Election, the County Election...
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:54
too much noise for my tastes, especially when the part that counts at the ballot box is one election
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:54
yeah
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:55
ontologically pleasing however
anyways
sleep zone zone zone zone
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:56
sleep zone
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:56
I want to try that concept and experiment with the social aspect of it all in an upcoming election; as an 'owner'
as much as I would love to put in all this infrastructure and support-- I'd hate to do it and have it wasted on a failed hypothesis
I kind of like the current state of the app where it isn't dependent on anything fancy-- very minimal operations requirements
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:58
yeah very portable
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 03:58
sleep zone part 2.... nite nite
Ryan McCullagh
@rmccullagh
Mar 23 2015 03:58
talk soon
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 03:58
yeah i'm intrigued with the direction. at the moment i have a hard time imagining the UX of this, but i'll think about it
i think it starts with a "Create Election Page" button on the home page, or something...
Vincent Schramer
@scvnc
Mar 23 2015 04:00
I hesitate to focus in on the ownership ui stuff
arrharhahrgahrga sleep zone take 3
good brain dump though
Mitch Downey
@mitchdowney
Mar 23 2015 04:03
haah