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    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    George: we don't want to hold off achieving the three relevant milestones until we can demonstrate exchange of real data, although it would still be good to do that.
    George Svarovsky
    @gsvarovsky
    Victor: do we still want to have one format that we all support?
    Make it easier to ‘join the club’ of participating systems in the federation
    Angus: we’ve moved on since the start of the project from saying we try to make just one format
    Hence the ‘club’ model, which is about not having the same format but still having some conventions, to spread the load
    Angus: action to elaborate on the journey
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    Michiel: what about iCal format?
    George: we weren't aware of that one specifically, but should be feasible.
    Michiel: we can just add that to PreJournal.
    Victor: we can do CalDav format
    It's not a union format, but does support a pretty broad range of data in timesheets, as well as metadata.
    George: we could potentially include CalDav explicitly in all our systems, as part of the milestones.
    George: is there such a thing as a CalDav endpoint?
    Victor: it's a protocol, supporting events.
    Michiel: iCal is the data format.
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    Victor: Tiki supports CalDav in both push and pull directions, but not for timesheets. He can try to see what woudl be involved in extending Tiki to support it for timesheet data.
    Michiel: happy to do push of CalDav data on behalf of the rest of the federating systems.
    Michiel: organisations are separate from software code bases, so you could run your own instance of PreJournal to integrate with say, Google Calendar.
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    Michiel: currently working on how to do a database reset, with a view to retrieving the data afresh from Tiki and timeld.
    Angus: does this mean that you want to go beyond just having data pushed to PreJournal?
    Michiel: yes, using a GET against your endpoint to list the data in question.
    George: if we do that, we potentially lose the benefit of reducing the work involved with Federation by halving the effort to just pushing.
    Michiel: if you only push, there may be data loss and /or corruption, so being able to do a pull enables that to be detected and addressed.
    Michiel: if a given system relies on doing a "push-and-forget", then it wouldn't have the authoritative copy of the original data.
    Angus: the source system would still retain the original data, but would benefit of only having to push data, and not read it.
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    Michiel: all systems still have to understand one another's formats, by virtue of having to post to them.
    George: yes, but they don't have to know how to read them, only write them.
    When a new system joins the club, it has to know how to post data to other club members, and those members have to learn its target format for it to be included in the club.
    Michiel: it's almost about content negotiation, since the format could be expressed as a MIME Type.
    George: that would be a GET, though, rather than a POST.
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    There would need to be a new member onboarding phase, which would require all participants to do their part as described.
    Michiel: what happens if the number of systems in a federation grows significantly beyond just the 3 that are in it now?
    Angus: it wouldn't be sustainable to continue connecting as a mesh if there are more than 5 or 6 systems; it would be better if some act as proxies for others, essentially creating "islands of federation".
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    George: this looks like it could be the basis of a follow-on project, to Marc's earlier point.
    Michiel: we could simulate that by each of us integrating with only one other system in this project?
    Angus: we could potentially compromise the objectives of this project if we do that; it would be better to maintain the 3-way federation we are currently aiming at, with a view to proposing a follow-on project that shows how this would scale to a larger number of systems, with some proxy arrangement as described above. The bigger picture is the strategic goal of supporting genuinely federated bookkeeping, where the number of systems and system instances needing to be connected would be legion. The Internet itself is a good precursor of this, in that its IP layer supports such islands, using protocols such as BGP, and concepts like Autonomous Systems.
    Michiel: OK, this would help us to justify such a project.
    George Svarovsky
    @gsvarovsky
    Thanks for scribing Angus!
    1 reply
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    George: regarding milestone 4, Documentation, Angus has been doing quite a bit of this, so we need to look at that.
    Michiel: the original idea was that Andrei would be writing that up on Ponder Source's behalf, but he's been so busy with his primary job that he's not been able to take that on. Rose will be doing some of it, however.
    George: Angus has an action to describe the Information Architecture journey from the original conception to what it is today.
    Angus: yes, it needs to articulate how we moved from a union format for the data to more of an autonomous, decoupled, yet connected approach, manifest in the "POST-only in target system's format" line we are now taking.
    Michiel: would it make sense for that milestone to be shared between Ponder Source and m-ld, in view of that work Angus has?
    Angus McAllister
    @Angus-McAllister
    Angus: yes, I think so. 50-50 makes sense (unless there's a huge disparity between the effort expended by contributors in either organisation).
    Michiel: OK, so we'll ensure we track time on that task.
    Angus: and we'll do the same on our side.
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    I'm having a go at wrapping up milestone 4. See federatedbookkeeping/timesheets#43
    1 reply
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    @kroky_gitlab https://timesheets.dev3.evoludata.com/tiki-index.php has an incorrect TLS cert and is showing "Ceci est un test privé pour le CPMD.", is that intended?
    1 reply
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    @kroky_gitlab when you say you support Scoro, Mite and Time (https://gitter.im/federatedbookkeeping/timesheets?at=62ab2467e393a318065d4dd1), do you mean there is a way to sync data from those into WikiSuite, out of WikiSuite to those, or both ways? And what is the process for each? Can it be unattended or does it involve the user downloading + uploading a file?
    1 reply
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    prejournal=# select c.name, sum(m.amount) as hours from movements m inner join components c on m.fromcomponent = c.id where m.tocomponent=8 and m.timestamp_ < date('2022-08-05 00:00:00') group by c.name;
      name   | hours 
    ---------+-------
     ismoil  |   476
     michiel | 221.5
    (2 rows)

    You should be seeing the same numbers when you query the API of https://time.pondersource.com

    This does mean that we're already over budget, especially if we give half of milestone 4 to m-ld as discussed on Monday's meeting. That's OK because the Ponder Source Foundation can finance the rest, but it does mean we're nearing wrap-up time from our side. :) Ponder Source Foundation also financed the hours made by Triantafullenia and Lambert already, and Andrej worked as a volunteer on the project from our side.