These are chat archives for flow-stack/flow

14th
Jan 2015
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:00
If you do not what the have showThen: up at the rood than you will just have it in Composite and have a show ^self showThen: [ self showSubControllers...
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:00
eh?
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:01
I simply find it confusing and not intuitive to call the method showThen:
:-D
It must be obvious and natural to understand fo a newbee on why there is a showThen: in some cases,...
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:02
showAndThen: is any less confussing?
showAndAfterShowingItPleaseEvaluate: aBlock
:D
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:06
That brings the issue with the model changes up again ;-) I think we must discuss a general new approach..... as a Amber beginner I struggled a lot on why stuff didn't work until I realized that there must be something rendered and known to the DOM until I can tweak it. This is the main issue why most throw Amber away after a short period of time. I think we just need to add a more obvious "flow"
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:07
well but they are wanting to throw away the frontend reality
but I do agree that we should do the best we can to make it great
the js world is saving his own ass from callback hell by embracing promises
I feel we have to too because of all the many async things that happen in the frontend
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:10
In Smalltalk you are guided by existing frameworks and naming conventions on how to build a ui and it pretty obvious where to put which kind of code. In Amber we are much more dependent on a good "flow" just to make sure you are not forgetting the evel restrictions when both sides need to interact with each other,.... like our Model problem today
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:11
aha, so?
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:11
Mapless helped here,... maybe we need the same thing for "showing" controllers.... a framework that takes care of it and guides you more through the process of rendering, initializing and showing stuff
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:11
well you are start to talk in a way that sounds like
decoupling rendering from showing
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:12
I do not want to need to implement a showThen:
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:12
that's the React and virtual-dom , mithril, etc thingies
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:12
I do want to know that I override a showTemplate method and then a show subcontrollers method and the rest is more or less hidden
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:12
it's either a promise or a callback boy, there is no way out
show me a clever way to hide that and that your way doesn't make us loose features and I might buy it :)
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:14
yes... it is... and the framework shall decide for me... I just want to have two methods to implement. What to show and what to manipulate based on the model....
okay I will do. because for a newcomer it is a pain to learn and not forget that sometimes you have to use a promise and sometimes not.... it took us way too long today to port the examples to mvc
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:20
I like this disconformity you show, but I like more that you sound like you know what to do about it
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:21
well it is diffcult to explain it. Here are the objectves:
I find showThen: a poor naming, since not the whole Controller is shown,... just the outer frame/temaple
I find the fact that I need to take care of such thinkgs like promisses not very good,... since beginners have a hard time to understand it and keep it in mind and I think this is something the framework could handle in most cases.
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:23
create and renderThen: would fix that but the issue you raised in bigger
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:26
I know. We should first use the current release and collect ideas. as long as nobody has used the current release, nobody will udnerstand this chat.
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:26
hehe true
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:28
showDeferedDo: shows the intension at least a little better. showThen: yould also be interpreted like a navigation process...or what so ever,...
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:28
that's because you are not used to use enough js libraries!
damn smalltalkers :D
but it's okay we'll find a good one
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:29
I'll try to update my stuff tomorrow afternoon and then we will see. I am sure we will find some more spots to tweak and optimize. And for both will will find a good solution.
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:29
I'm sure of it
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:31
Amber brings the Smalltalk to the JS,... just have a look how much better the js lib app structuring got with the last release. Flow adds a lot of HTML tempalting and model change propagation to the mix. Now let's add rendeing/showing to it and we jsut need to focus an the beckend then :-D
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:34
Meteor did it well
did you used it?
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:35
Only the one based on the old Seaside Comet if you mean this
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:35
no that's crap
I mean Meteor Meteor
the one that got freaking 11M in funding
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 00:37
no haven't used it
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:38
I'm removing the App from amber-flow it doesn't need any
well meteor is pretty great
Isomorphic APIs
and MiniMongo on the frontend
and it propagate changes "like magic" to backend and other clients
the ws of flow are meant to help you to do the same
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 00:54
@HeSe amber-flow#0.3.16 is live
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 16:50
@sebastianconcept I installed flow and then amber-flow on top of it..... now App class is missing, since it is part of the amber-mvc package....
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 17:04
we need to add amber-mvc/deploy and remove the other amber-mvc entries to the deploy.json, right?
Well, no that screws up the amber-mvc "grunt devel" process since the local.amd.json wont fit anymore... can once define two paths in one amd.json?
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 17:22
ah flow itself was not upgraded
devel, deploy and grunt needs adjustment
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 18:01
that is why a configuration maps browser in VASmalltalk comes so handy :-D :-D :-D But nobody wants to use the most superior code repository any more.... it is so sad
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 19:21
heh
I belieive you, but the ligua franca is javascript so world will have to rediscover the idea
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 19:25
@sebastianconcept I tried to bring APP.st to the amber-flow package, but somehow the App main start won't disply the page. even though the main.html is loaded.... I assume now the example.htmlk temaples are missing on this level since they are part of amber-mvc... on the other hand I feel like amber-flow needs it's own examples or maybe even just a link to the petshop?
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 19:25
wait a sec I'm upgrading
I was in meeting, I'll finish in a bit
The App form mvc should stay there, flow will have just a welcome
later we can improve that
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 19:37
okay. No worries, I am all over the place right now.
Sebastian Sastre
@sebastianconcept
Jan 14 2015 22:32
@HeSe the new Amber does something with the globals I think and I need to upgrade how we access the ones from the libraries
we need to use always require to get them
Sebastian Heidbrink
@HeSe
Jan 14 2015 23:07
well, I have some trouble, too.
but on the nodejs server side