gerbil/community

All things Gerbil Scheme

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

but I couldn't find anything on parens on that gambit extensions page

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

but i thought the unusual behavior of [] and {} was implemented by gerbil, not gambit

François-René Rideau

@fare

both. Actually, Gerbil isn't yet compatiible with Gambit's latest |[...]| implementation.

But yeah, between a new #lang and more hacks, you can make whatever you want of various parens.

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

i figured so

where should i start looking? parser, lexer...? i've never really done any of that in racket

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

@dimaugh_twitter Afaict, there's non-trivial crossover between Gerbil's & Racket's #lang systems -- https://docs.racket-lang.org/br/ is a very neat book on this topic , that I've only poked a lil in thusfar

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

both. Actually, Gerbil isn't yet compatiible with Gambit's latest |[...]| implementation.

Is there a place in the Gerbil docs that lists a "last known working commit" for Gambit? Built on-top of a pretty old commit (c0753ff127baefebd00193a135f48f18c59c496a) as-per someone's suggestion in here. Works and everything, but feel like I might be missing out on features eventually if I try to track more upstream on both projects. :^P

Well, not a suuuuppper old commit or anything; Mid-June of this year, but still. lol

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

@jsgrant yes! I'm slowly doing the tutorials in beautiful racket, i hope i can apply all that later in gerbil

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

I've said it before, but the fact Gerbil has a #lang system is HUGE value-added for me. Between that, and the potential for a much nicer "interactive" experience due to gambit's interpreter are* unbelievable wins.

Now we just need an "ultra-low-latency gc" on the order of Java's "new" ZGC. :^)))))

Well, also shipping a MOP is a non-trivial benefit ; Swindle (tinyCLOS-ish system) in Racket is neat ... but pretty much abandoned at this point and hard to use in the modern Racket ecosystem afaict

vyzo

@vyzo

fun fact -- the first version of Gerbil was written as a plt-scheme (before it was racket) #lang :)

I really like the ability to make custom languages

and I bear no ill will towards racket :)

François-René Rideau

@fare

@jsgrant latest supported Gambit is, as specified in my branch of nixpkgs:

  version = "unstable-2021-06-16";
  git-version = "4.9.3-1447-gc0753ff1";
  stampYmd = 20210616;
  stampHms = 032740;
  src = fetchFromGitHub {
    owner = "feeley";
    repo = "gambit";
    rev = "c0753ff127baefebd00193a135f48f18c59c496a";
    sha256 = "0d46hdmw6v7pvvq5am73dngrw3v5f2dinxdkca4n7995v8hlvjpj";
  };

and yes, we should be doing something about that

vyzo

@vyzo

I think that directly mutating the default readtable might work

anyone care to try it?

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

and I bear no ill will towards racket :)

Same. I LOVE Racket; It's just less concentrated / more scatter-shot of an ecosystem -- which makes it very relatable to me. lool

Gerbil seems to have a clear sense of direction (or at least domain , even just deeming it as a "systems-programming language" goes a long way in my mind), and it's obviously informed non-trivially by CL experience. Which is GREAT because I think it helps delegate a #lang system to a tool and not the defining feature of the language.

"With great power comes great responsibility" and all that I suppose, and language-oriented design is really neat in-theory but the possibility for fragmentation is real and I don't know what you do to prevent this en masse when it's the organizing principle of your language.

Guess the best thing one can do (and what Racket does seem to do) is focus on "1 lang" and ship a LOT of batteries included; Maybe now Rhombus is challenging that idea bit -- but at least historically that seems like it was the focus

Racket still probably has the 'nicest' GUI lib I know in the Scheme world; In-fact most Scheme have no defacto GUI in the first-place I guess and/or arguably a community big enough to manifest one

jsgrant @jsgrant has considered trying to build something off of c-bindings of Dear Imgui or similar for Gerbil; Seems like the easiest way to go from 0-to-something lol

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

I for-sure want to try to write an idiomatic Raylib wrapper at somepoint; And it ships raygui as an immediate-mode gui ... seems 'too simple' to base a general-purpose ui lib around though.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

latest supported Gambit is, as specified in my branch of nixpkgs:

- fare

Will probably try to rebuild based on that sometime this week on all my machines; gonna keep an eye on this every-once-and-awhile but good to know where to look atm. :^)

(( wonders why a bullet-point under a quote makes the quote bold. loool ))

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

Dear Imgui looks really nice, and apparently somebody did something like that in s7:
https://github.com/actondev/s7-imgui

dimaugh

@dimaugh_twitter

I think that directly mutating the default readtable might work

thanks for the hint! I just found (##readtable-char-class-set! ##main-readtable «char» «delimiter?» «handler»)

but what would be the handler for "(" and ")"?

i imagine something like
(##readtable-char-class-set! ##main-readtable #[ #t ##open-parens)

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

@dimaugh_twitter Neat! Glad to see some 'prior work' I can take hints from.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

(( Just saw my checked out commit in my cloned Gambit repo, turns out was already on the latest; loool. I guess good to know I shouldn't have to babysit it I guess to keep it 'up-to-date'. ))

François-René Rideau

@fare

Speaking of GUI for Gambit—have you looked at JazzScheme? I wonder how much work it would be to wrap it in Gerbil.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

Yeah, spoke with GCartier a month or-two ago; He showed me some of his game-engine / group-chat application in Jazz. And was getting frustrated by my lack of C experience trying to debug it to get it working in Linux. looool

He's doing a bunch of really interesting stuff, but yeah, not sure how much is actually usable outside of that ecosystem --

The 'ultimate goal' in my mind is approximating McClim-in-Gerbil, but that's a loooong ways away. lol

Drew Crampsie

@drewc

@fare I've been working with JazzScheme for just that reason. Wrapping it should be trivial really.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

@drewc For Jazz did you need to build on a newer version of Gambit than with Gerbil? Trying with my 'last-working-commit-for-gerbil' branch and 'jam' fails almost immediately

Drew Crampsie

@drewc

@jsgrant yes/no ... I built Jazz from Jedi a while ago and it seems to be built from the 'bongo' branch but that was certainly before Jazz got itself updated the gambit readtable so no idea right now.

No idea what version of Gambit I used but fairly certain it was the "last-working-commit-for-gerbil" as that was/is the most recent I have on my boxes for now.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

@drewc Thanks, will poke around a bit more then. I actually had a working version a few months ago because gcartier introduced me to some of his other software like his game-engine / groupchat application ... then switched distros in the meantime and completely forgot what I did to set the underlying env up. Don't remember it being this 'hard' so guessing it might just be a stray commit somewhere. :^P

Drew Crampsie

@drewc

@jsgrant I totally plan to update gerbil to the latest gambit myself, so feel at home in that club as well! :P I've taken some time away from coding and computers in general to ease my stress level but will be getting back into it shortly. At that point I'll have a lot more Jazz and use the latest Gambit (Smith–Morra! :P) alongside a nice furry Gerbil.

Joshua S. Grant

@jsgrant

I've taken some time away from coding and computers in general to ease my stress level but will be getting back into it shortly.

FULLY sympathetic to that; Have done that many times (probably near a half-dozen) in my life, and honestly haven't ever regretted that. Especially when it's opensource / programming approximating a hobby -- if it stops being rewarding, yeah, it's time to step a way for a bit and take a breather.

@drewc re: "Smith-Morra" ... now I wish that every Gambit major release had a chess-gambit based name. lol

vyzo

@vyzo

I vote for Benko for the next release

that is my favourite opening gambit

SM is very dangerous, but I don't generally play it -- i hate seeing it with black though, and I usually decline and revert to Alapin

Drew Crampsie

@drewc

@vyzo That's a good choice. I always play SM with white as it tends to throw off enough to make it well worth it. I always decline as black because I think it is a silly approach.

I often use the Alapin move order to get to SM or thereabouts.

As long as we're not a King's, I'm good to go with Gambit choices :P

vyzo

@vyzo

yeah the KG is utterly unsound, black just plows over you typically if he knows what he's doing :)

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