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  • Jun 13 2019 08:02
    @jaspervdm banned @matrixbot
  • May 06 2018 21:29
    User @ignopeverell unbanned @maesitos
  • May 06 2018 00:41
    @ignopeverell banned @maesitos
Andres G. Aragoneses
@knocte
interesting thanks
A
@niemerg_twitter
has there been any plans to do some sort of founder's reward, initial coin sale?
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
@niemerg_twitter I think it would be better without a ICO. This should be a community project with natural growth and a fair distribution. Though I'm not a developer and have no real say on the matter. What do you think @ignopeverell
?
A
@niemerg_twitter
well, they could do a founder's reward like ZCash
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
Zcash is made by a greedy company that wants profits
A
@niemerg_twitter
yeah, but it also has income that is supporting a pretty large group of scientists and engineers
who seem to be pretty productive
I'd love to see a mimblewimble with resources to continue to grow rather than have to scrap by for development funds
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
I just don't think projects like these need millions of dollars for development. More money doesn't necessarily mean a project is going to be better. The truly momentous things weren't made by people that wanted money, they were made by people who were truly inspired by a dream to accomplish something
Jacob Payne
@Latrasis
I think it's a balance. Money as a tool helps move project forward. Many of us would want to work on this full-time, but we can't simply because we need to work to make a living.
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@fernandolobato that would be great, if you can start with a first pass at it then we can add more content
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@niemerg_twitter I've been thinking about this for a bit but haven't found a really good solution so far. We've started and I hope to continue more as a regular open source project, with people from different backgrounds genuinely interested in the technology, and I think that's a great advantage. Zcash may have an interesting model but there's weird incentives, too much cohesion in the people involved, and unclear long-term path (what happens after the reward runs out? what if they don't do great use of their funds and run out of money?). The Dash model is interesting from a governance standpoint but I hate the masternode approach. Of all of these the Ethereum pre-sale may be the most fair but it requires a whole legal structure and so would an ICO.
I'd love if we were able to capture some funds to help people involved and wanting to spend more time pay the bills though
My best idea so far is just a donation address, which isn't a great idea at all as I know that wouldn't pay for much, only investments would
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
I like the donation idea, there might not be many donations in the early stages but after grin is up and running people who are invested in the project will likely donate towards development
A
@niemerg_twitter
My best understanding is the Zcash model may be best from a legal perspective, as opposed to an Ethereum ICO model. I've heard the same from people who know more about this than me. I think it's laudable that there's a hesitancy to cash in on the whole ICO craze, but at the end of the day, a project is in the best position if it can reliably pay salaries to the developers. I have yet to see a well-funded coin that was able to do so strictly out of donations (I'd be very interested to be proven wrong on this).
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@niemerg_twitter there are plenty of non funded coins that have done well (starting with bitcoin)
A
@niemerg_twitter
well, i would put bitcoin in its own weird class. In any event, as best as I understand it, most of the developers today are working for companies that have taken investment dollars, received academic support, etc.
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
but I understand where you're coming from, and if we could deploy money to get a good Schnorr spec and implementation, or to fund Merope on the MMR, there wouldn't be much hesitation from me
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
But do you really want a coin that has a central point of failure?
A
@niemerg_twitter
well, i'm not convinced that paying developers creates a central point of failure
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
Maybe not in all cases
But ethereum for example, that guy got everyone to roll back the blockchain because him and his buddies lost money
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
depends a lot on how you do it, Zcash seems like an example where there may be some centralization risks, on the other end Ethereum was very good at attracting developers from a lot of different places and those people continued through
I wouldn't go in the DAO, this was a fairly complex issue from all sorts of reasons
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
I guess zcash is a better example
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
and ETC came out of it, which is a great example of decentralization
A
@niemerg_twitter
yeah, and the fork was very popular with the community! i mean, we have a lot of ETC to show that absolute immutability is not the core concern of cryptocurrency communities
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
"plagiarism is the greatest form of flattery" :smile:
A
@niemerg_twitter
regarding Zcash centralization risks. I would agree with the idea that it is currently pretty centralized. But I am optimistic about the long-term there.
I don't think, for example, a government could get them to break the anonymity that it provides. I think that's much less likely than them breaking the crypto by accident.
Lucifer1903
@Lucifer1903
I guess I have my doubts with zcash because power is very hard to relinquish once it is obtained
A
@niemerg_twitter
well, I think that the power of people like Vitalik is more based around community support than actual control
for example, Zooko has a couple times suggested weakening the anonymity of Zcash a couple times. And very quickly he has backed down under intense community pressure.
lukap3rcic
@lukap3rcic
noob question here; is grin the only mimblewimble implementation?
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@lukap3rcic so far, yes
so it's the best, by far :smile:
lukap3rcic
@lukap3rcic
haha
i would like to ask when ico™ (when polo™), but that would be retarded
any idea on how hard would be to add multisig to mimblewimble?
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@lukap3rcic not hard at all as soon as we have Schnorr signatures, which we need anyway for a variety of reasons
urza
@urza_cc_twitter
@niemerg_twitter @ignopeverell Some of the best projects humanity has done in last few decades are voluntary funded without some central authority or corporation behind them. Wikipedia, Linux, Bitcoin.... Internet even. I would suggest lets not try to "pay salaries for developers" like ZCash, Dash and other make-money coins. If you guys need some resources for the work you do, lets set up some donation system, perhaps something like Monero has funding forum https://forum.getmonero.org/8/funding-required ...I am ready to send something if you need and I sure wont be the only one. What you do now in the early stage will influence what will become of grin. In the spirit of how mimble wimble was delivered, I say lets stay in the category where Bitcoin, not ZCash is.
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@urza_cc_twitter I agree
I'd just add that for all the projects you mentioned, some corporations stepped in and hired developers to work on these projects, which isn't a bad way to do it
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
as long as you have a rich enough ecosystem where multiple corporations do so, with still a mix of independents
urza
@urza_cc_twitter
good point
Jacob Payne
@Latrasis
@ignopeverell: As an aside, for multiplexing, would thetokio::RequestIdbe just a hash of a PeerInfo? Is siphash good enough?
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
that's probably not sufficient as it won't vary between requests
I believe the RequestId needs to uniquely identify the request