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  • Jun 13 2019 08:02
    @jaspervdm banned @matrixbot
  • May 06 2018 21:29
    User @ignopeverell unbanned @maesitos
  • May 06 2018 00:41
    @ignopeverell banned @maesitos
John Tromp
@tromp
yes, i want to start with cuckoo32 as minimum
it's still barely minable by high mem cards
but offers decent deterance to single chip ASICs
jaspervdm
@jaspervdm
i dont see why they would do that though, after 2 years grin is already very asic friendly
Antioch Peverell
@antiochp
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter that's always a risk and we can't prevent it - they'd have no dev team though
John Tromp
@tromp
i'm hoping ASICs will support cuckoo33 as well though, so that at some point we can raise the minimum to that
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
of course, that can always be done, but a chain gets little value for some miners hard forking, most value is brought by the development team and that's something everyone hard forking has to think long and hard about
Calvin Kim
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter
@antiochp It's like the Zcash fork then. The devs carry the value with them. Centralization through devs
Idk I think it's a no win situation tbh
lehnberg
@lehnberg
@tromp can you go a bit deeper here into the motivation for this? Ie why is Cuckoo32 desired in order deter single chip ASICs?
Antioch Peverell
@antiochp
for some limited definition of centralization
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@tromp one thing is just in the chance there are no Cuckoo32 ASICs on launch, can we throw a few GPUs at it in the meantime?
John Tromp
@tromp
possibly conditional on seeing evidence of single chip cuckoo32 ASICs
yes, we'll write a GPU solver doing cuckoo32 in 11 GB
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter are you saying we should commit to support any fork with any code change people might dream of then?
lehnberg
@lehnberg
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter but the Grin devs are not that centralized
Compared with other coins that have development companies etc
Antioch Peverell
@antiochp
we are roughly aligned though today (until we're not :smile:)
John Tromp
@tromp
@lehnberg are you asking why we want to deter single chip ASICs?
Calvin Kim
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter
@ignopeverell No I'm just concerned about a case in where a company like Bitmain takes over the development and carry on with their own and split the community/hash power
@lehnberg true
jaspervdm
@jaspervdm
i have to leave now but i will read up on the discussion when i get back
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@jaspervdm sounds good!
lehnberg
@lehnberg
@tromp yes, for clarity and for the people listening
John Tromp
@tromp
single chip ASICs are necessarily HUGE and require more expertise to design and allocate fab capacity for
separate cuckoo ASIC + memory chips are individually simpler and more flexible and more recyclable
i imagine obsolete miners getting a 2nd life as superfast general purpose computers
lehnberg
@lehnberg
So separate chip ASICs are preferred over single chips, and single chips are believed to not be possible on Cuckoo32, correct?
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
anyone working for an ASIC manufacturer who's listening and disagrees?
John Tromp
@tromp
single chip ASICs for cuckoo32 would likely need multiple passes for edge trimming, reducing their efficiency
lehnberg
@lehnberg
Oki
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
that was worth a shot
John Tromp
@tromp
number of passes increases proportional to graph size assuming fixed memory limit
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
I don't have a strong opinion so I'm ok with what @tromp says, especially when he writes it in extra large fonts
Calvin Kim
@kcalvinalvinn_twitter
lol
lehnberg
@lehnberg
Back to @yeastplume question - proposal was released yesterday. Shall we say that we move forward unless convinced otherwise by end of Monday next week?
John Tromp
@tromp
that's what happens if you abbreviate number of with a hash sign
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
heh, h1
John Tromp
@tromp
so ppl who complain about not being able to afford 1080ti, we reply sorry, you're out of luck?
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
@lehnberg I think we should already consider that in the absence of a strong argument against it, it's happening
@tromp I think so, what else do you want to do? 2GB because there are still cards that require it?
lehnberg
@lehnberg
@tromp I think that’s more than fair tbh
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
you have to consider that by the time grin comes out, most 4GB cards will be obsolete
lehnberg
@lehnberg
@ignopeverell I’m happy with that approach as well; ie to just start thinking about implementation and not waste time
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
in addition I wouldn't mind giving a small advantage to people who plan to mine Grin only vs using it as yet another hedge against mining other chains
lehnberg
@lehnberg
Any dissenters are very much encouraged to raise their voices. Preferably sooner rather than later
John Tromp
@tromp
ppl can always mine other coins and exchange proceeds to grin i guess
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
how about we finish with some more fun stuff? I'm thinking it might be time to launch some official logo competition
John Tromp
@tromp
ok, so we adopt the dual pow proposal with further change to cuckoo32?!
Ignotus Peverell
@ignopeverell
yes