These are chat archives for highfidelity/hifi

3rd
Dec 2014
Adrianl3d
@Adrianl3d
Dec 03 2014 03:18
@MirceaKitsune if you run the Lobby.js script in examples, then press Escape, it takes you to a place where you can click on any of the domains currently running (most dont run 24/7 yet)
Judas
@judasshuffle
Dec 03 2014 09:15
Is their something clever I need to do to make my domain show in the lobby?
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 13:04
Is there a way to execute all scripts in /examples? I set it as the default script directory and clicked "load default scripts", but nothing happened. Or am I not supposed to do this with the scripts there?
Judas
@judasshuffle
Dec 03 2014 13:14
the default scripts r things like the build tools at the sides and bottom on the screen
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 13:15
ok
Judas
@judasshuffle
Dec 03 2014 13:16
things like lobby just run tho lobby u need to press esc to make it do anything
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 13:18
Yeah, got it to work. Found some impressive places indeed!
Trying to understand one thing, but I can't really tell: Are the existing terrains made out of voxels or dynamic (editable) heightmaps? Or is everything that's not blocky an imported 3D model... no procedural geometry or voxels involved?
Judas
@judasshuffle
Dec 03 2014 13:22
i dunno i got in here based on my looks ;)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 13:23
ok :)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 15:53
Hmm... I'm seeing a commit about lightmaps in GIT. I really hope it doesn't implement pre-compiled lighting. I understand that HIFI is a dynamic world based on realtime editing... plus baked lightmaps are becoming a thing of the past (Quake 3 era).
Some areas seem to have textured shadows actually. That's sad... IMHO a modern project shouldn't be encouraging outdated and rigid rendering techniques.
Chris Collins
@cozza13
Dec 03 2014 16:33
@MirceaKitsune i think you will find that most game engines support a combination of both baked and bynamic lighting. e.g. for static objects you want to bake the lighting. For Dynamic objects you want to have dynamic lighting
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:45
Overall, most engines support both. I think baked lightmaps are a thing of the past though... at least for really modern and ultimate engines. Dynamic lighting tends to be preferred even on static objects... since you can do things like adjusting the resolution of shadows (since they're realtime), and shadows are also cast of a dynamic entity walks above the object.
Well, I might be wrong... I didn't dive deep into the engines I'm referring to and see if they actually support lightmaps any more. But I took a look at Tesseract a few days ago for instance (based on Cube 2), and I think that's one that uses hardware lighting only. Seems to work fine @ 60 FPS flat too :)
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:48
I think a lot of it comes down to how do you get 75FPS to keep the Oculus happy on less than stellar level hardware. That and supporting small devices (tablets/smartphone class stuff) may lead to some... compromises on how far rendering can be pushed. That's just my guess based on things seen so far. As a non Oculus entity I'm fine with 30-40 FPS on my antiquated 1920x1080 flat screen.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:49
Ah... yes. The Oculus might be a problem, since having to lenses (for each eye) might require rendering the viewport twice from different angles. So that's twice the work for the video card...
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:50
thus the 75 fps overall, yeah.
I hear it gets pretty unpleasant for those if the framerate drops. I don't notice it as bothersome until it goes < 20 for my flat world view.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:51
Another thing which worries me is that combining baked lighting with dynamic lighting can have... less pretty results. A dynamic light might cast a shadow on top of baked shadow. The resolution difference between the two, and the way they overlap, might break the realism and effect.
Also, if hifi will have a dynamic daytime cycle like SL, baked shadows can't move to represent the sun's position and the light. So the sun can be on the left, and the shadow looks like it's cast from the right.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:52
yeah - I never bake static shadows in my meshes - annoys the hell out of me to see a baked static shadow being shown to be "wrong" by a dynamic compute as seen in SL as sun moves.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:52
Yep :)
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:53
I just do global lighting and bake AO but a light one so those also creating AO in viewer don't see a really harsh additive AO
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:53
I guess having the ability isn't bad. But I hope it won't be abused too much in Hifi. Since mesh support was added to Second Life, it's used quite often there... totally doesn't match the world well.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:54
agreed
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:54
Yeah, AO is adaptable, baking that can be more okay. Though I like engines that do SSAO via shaders still
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:55
I experimented with baking shadows at 4 hour intervals from 8 angles then scripted the mesh to pick a best fit based on sun angle and mesh to sun orientation. It kind of works but is a huge pain and not suitable for anything beyond a one off custom build.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:56
Sounds painful to do, yeah. In SL that would require 4 versions of the same texture
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:56
yup
did it ;) Once. haha
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 17:58
I wonder: In this case, couldn't the server update shadow maps at a fixed interval? So if someone can't enable dynamic lighting, they can request shadow mapping to be done by the server... say updated every 1 minute. But this is a problem if a dynamic entity casts a shadow then leaves... there will be a black dot there for a minute. So it would only work for sunlight.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 17:58
actually 4 versions * 16 as the mesh was 2 joined meshes each with 8 materials. I spent about 2 days rendering. But it looked slick even on low graphics settings.
yeah - there may be yet some tricks, but, short of rendering in real time, will always be hackish looking.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:01
Can lightmaps be disabled via a setting currently? Would like to compare, plus I'll probably want to turn them off once realtime lighting is in and working.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:01
I just hope we don't end up with a limited render engine to insure the frame rate stays high for all... some of us like creating things that requires better than average hardware to see, even if it limits the audience.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:02
In a sense this is better... because in SL people bake shadows into the actual texture. So you can't disable them if you wish
Indeed. I'm hoping modern shaders and such will be added too :)
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:02
being open source, can have anything wanted if someone can be found to program it haha
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:03
I just made a thread about GLSL shaders last hour. My idea was if they could be independently linked or coded like existing Javascript files
So say, if I wanted motion blur, I'd reference that shader like existing JS scripts
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:04
yeah, saw that. I really hope a lot of things will be more flexible than SL/OS. I'm already loving the use of FBX as the import format for meshes. Gives me a lot more control and ease of importing assets.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:05
Nice. Can't say I worked with this format... I model and animate in Blender though.
Well, I mostly edit existing models... not such a good artist.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:05
ability to embed textures in the FBX and simply upload one file is awesome. I use blender too, the latest production build well supports FBX
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:07
Aha... 2.72 seems to have two fbx addons. Good to know!
Rigged models tend to come in so many formats it can make your head hurt. I think a mainstream one is x, or b3d (Irrlicht uses those)
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:08
I can upload one file for HF, it has all the diffuse, normal and specular textures embedded as well as maintain the specular levels and such as seen in blender. Only thing I'm still having issue with is alpha textures - seems to be only basic support there. I end up with 1 of 2 possible alpha levels (none or almost 100% transparent).
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:09
Does Hifi support normal / bump / specular maps to any extent? I think I saw specular reflections on something.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:09
yeah - I really hope to see a general purpose rig for non AV models as well - I like rigging my doors and windows vs having to rotate objects.
there were some commits recently for normals and specular, I think. It seems a couple things I have that have normals are rendering with now. Need to double check that when I have time tho.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:10
Yeah... Second Life failed here; It added mesh support, rigging custom avatar meshes, but never support to use self animated models as objects. So a mesh object rezzed in-world could play animations using their own rig. Allowing for NPC's and more.
Nice! Need to take a look at that, if I find any such models in the existing worlds.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:11
right and a rigged door wouldn't have to worry about where it rotates from ;) It would rotate about the rig bone.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:11
Yes
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:11
I'm seeing people already fighting to get doors to rotate about the correct axis here
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:12
I think I read about that too somewhere :P
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:12
I used a hack forever to solve that emulating the old path cut prim doors trick
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:13
BTW: Another reason why adding lightmaps seemed overhand is that I was dreaming of Hifi allowing you to build detailed (model quality) objects out of voxels. Voxels seem to only allow simple cubes however :(
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:13
I just made the door 2x wide and had no faces for 1/2 then it rotates about the center
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:13
And yes... this could be done via Marching Cubes smoothing.
Nice
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:13
yeah - I think voxels and metavoxels will show a lot of improvement as the tech develops
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:14
Hopefully, yeah. They're the main reason why I agree a new project like Hifi makes sense over improvements to the existing Second Life architecture
That and being able to host realms on various servers in any location... whereas SL puts regions in fixed squares and areas of 256m
Or was it 512 :P
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:16
256 :)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:16
Right :)
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:17
if you thought of an HF domain as a volume holding x SL size sims you could place 4096 in one domain
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:17
That said, I'm somewhat worried that current worlds in Hifi seem to use polygonal meshes... except for the sandbox :P Because an awesome thing in SL is that you created everything in-world, not in another model editor then exported and imported in-world. So I wonder if hifi will ever have people going to a sandbox world, and building models there in realtime... like SL users did back when primitives were the whole thing.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:18
I think/hope it will support traditional building, but, being a mesh-head, I'm happy to be in blender.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:19
Yeah... hopefully not from primitives made of fixed hard-coded shapes :) But traditional building would be really nice.
If detailed voxel objects don't happen that is... that would be wonderful
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:20
my domain is all mesh, full 16384x16384x180M terrain in one piece then the rest all mesh as well
I played with metavoxel height map terrain, but, it was a little too jagged for my likes. Once that improves I'll move to it for terrain.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:21
I was wondering about matavoxel height maps. Can they be edited in realtime, or only imported from a texture and become static afterward?
So there's at least a realtime terraforming system
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:21
real time
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:22
Cool, that's good then
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:22
it's easiest to create a base then edit it, but you could do it all in world if you're patient (crazy) enough ;)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:22
Heightmaps are good. Though if it was voxels, you could have overhead cliffs as well :) That would be nice
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:22
you can also create tunnels which is very cool
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:23
Really? Like dig in any direction?
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:23
yup
Thijs Wenker
@thoys
Dec 03 2014 18:23
and put random textures everywhere on the ground
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:23
Wow, cool! It's not really a heightmap then... those are 2D
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:23
though I wonder how long that will last once physics computation comes into play.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:23
Sounds similar to my marching cubes idea.
Can you make any object out of it?
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:24
sure - it's basically clay you can sculpt to any shape you like
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:24
@OmegaHeron Can't wait for some good ol' BulletX / ODE support! Hopefully not Havoc, since there's already libraries dragging Hifi into the closed-source world ;)
Very nice
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:25
it's just a matter of if it has enough resolution for your eye to be pleased.
Bullet seems to be the current direction - I like it, use it on my OS closed grid
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:26
Yeah, it's prolly the best.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:27
Bullet 3 has some really interesting stuff like using GPU power for computations. Since (presumably) physics will be part of the assignments stack one could envision physics engines having some really good capacity and spreading load over many machines vs SL/OS model of 1 machine doing it all
you might have some basic physics but be able to "hire" assignment servers to do far more intensive/detailed physics as needed.
zoned assignments would be cool too - i.e. 3D X/Y/Z volume is handled by server A, another by other(s) etc.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:30
GPU power probably won't help me much, since I'm an ATI user and this is usually Nvidie stuff (like PhysX).
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:30
right, but it'll help for those wanting to run high power physics engines and sell capacity to those wanting it
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:30
Even "worse" (but not really) I use the free video drivers. Because yes, MESA has gotten a LOT better for high-end graphics... which is awesome for open-source fans as myself!
yeah
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:32
I have a self interest there. I have a machine with 4 GTX780s in it that I used for GPU computing based DSP signal analysis.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:33
Nice
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:34
it's a beast and sitting in a colocation facility on nice fat pipes to inet ;)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:34
I believe OpenCL would make this task possible BTW... which is a system to script the GPU and run your own code on it. I need it to get GPU rendering in Blender -> Cycles, because raytracing on the CPU is so slow. But, no such thing for us ATI users yet ;)
I think it could for for physics too though... openCL I mean
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:35
yup - it's possible for sure. OpenCL is good stuff, I just ended up developing with CUDA as I had NVidia hardware on hand.
and the CUDA FFT library made it easy for me to start crunching signal analysis in a hurry.
Chris Collins
@cozza13
Dec 03 2014 18:47
@OmegaHeron you should try the latest metavoxels update. It now supports 16bit height maps . You can therfore create something that will not be as jagged.
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:48
@cozza13 Thanks, will try it this weekend, I'm already able to create height maps from my mesh terrain in blender so that'll be a good comparison.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:48
@cozza13 Is there a tutorial or in-depth explanation of them anywhere? It's the part I'm most intrigued about... I'm curious what sorts of objects (other than terrain) they can be used for.
This is sorta like a dream come true... since it's been a few years since I'm thinking about a virtual world similar to SL, but not made out of fixed shapes or (just) meshes... and instead out of smooth voxels which anyone can dig and sculpt using various materials. Hifi is actually doing it :)
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:57
Aha... now this is strange. I recently visited the hq / San Fransisco map... but the only thing that would render for me was the sky and the bridge. Screenshots however show that there should also be terrain, but I'm never seeing any. https://data.highfidelity.io/directory
Chris Collins
@cozza13
Dec 03 2014 18:58
Hi @MirceaKitsune metavoxels was updated in the last 10days
this made the older versions no longer work.
we are getting up a new one right now
should be back up within the week
Joe Large [Omega Heron]
@OmegaHeron
Dec 03 2014 18:59
I've avoided HQ, it makes me homesick seeing SF
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 18:59
That makes sense... I use the latest GIT master.
Mircea Kitsune
@MirceaKitsune
Dec 03 2014 19:58
Is there a difference between the normal voxel editor (the left sidebar) and the metavoxel editor menu? Metavoxels seem to let you place cubes as well, so it's a little confusing