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    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    oh wow, OER is a missing page here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Syntax_Notation_One#Encodings
    ha, just found https://www.obj-sys.com/docs/JSONEncodingRules.pdf
    maybe we can define ILP and LLL in ASN.1 and then still use JSON on the wire
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    @michielbdejong What is LLL? I assume something to do with the Ledger RPC API?
    HA - just saw the name on 251 -- never saw the word "lotocol" till now. LLL FTW!
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    yes, its binary version.
    It's a pun on PPP :)
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    Ah, that makes me feel a bit better - I was thinking it was some meme I hadn't heard of before, like "hodl on" (https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2b8t78/whats_hodl/)
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    :)
    Andrew Gates
    @andrew-g-za
    @sappenin - i wont be able to make tomorrow's call. The only thing that i had wanted to discuss was interledger/java-ilp-core#70 - i've left some comments, let me know what you think
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    @andrew-g-za sounds great - I'm hoping to get some time tomorrow morning early before work to look at various ILP Java issues - hoping to share some more thoughts then
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    Hey @/all - I can't make the Java call today - I'll leave the bluejeans open if anyone wants to still participate. Apologies for the late notice!
    Andrew Gates
    @andrew-g-za
    Hi @sappenin , i just joined and get the sinking feeling the calendar didnt get the time zone thing right again
    the invite is for 17:00 GMT+2
    im guessing its an hour late?
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    Nope - you have the right time / I'm just running a minute behind
    Andrew Gates
    @andrew-g-za
    happy days :)
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    I wanted to join so we can talk about Java and the testnet
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    @earizon hi! how's it going? I was wondering if there's anything I can help with in the Java implementation, for instance, are there any plans to implement the new version of the PluginVirtual RPC protocol? We changed it from JSON to OER and gave it a more official name: 'Bilateral Transfer Protocol'
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon

    @michielbdejong Hi Michiel, I interpret the "JSON" (protocol) can be considered deprecated right now. That was the protocol I was using for the java ledger (https://github.com/earizon/java-vertx-ledger/tree/master/src/main/java/com/everis/everledger/handlers) -that actually is not java but kotlin using the java-ilp-core package -.

    Is there any code to check how the new binary protocol is being used in NodeJS?. I'm thinking something similar to the five-bells-ledger/tests I used to develop the java/kotlin ledger.

    My intution says that porting from JSON to OER must be a matter of "re-encoding" the messages, so it must not be really difficult.

    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    Hi @earizon actually, we had some more discussion last week, let me discuss it now, and give you an answer!
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    +1
    By the way, the main branch is using an in-memory ledger so balances it's reseted on each reboot. The earizon-ethereumBackend branch used an Ethereum node (or network) as persistent backend. Bassically it keeps the five-bells-ledger protocol to interact with Ethereum (just in "PoC" version with the pre-defined accounts defined in the ./wallet subdirectory)
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    (balances are reseted)
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    five-bells-ledger api or ledger-plugin-interface?
    Evan Schwartz
    @emschwartz
    Hi @earizon, we're replacing the HTTP + JSON protocol with the Websockets + OER one in the trustline implementation (https://github.com/interledgerjs/ilp-plugin-payment-channel-framework/blob/master/src/lib/plugin.js). Are you building a ledger or an ILP client?
    (Note I'm talking about the plugin RPC / trustline and payment channel protocol. The Five Bells Ledger API is staying as it was, but we've been prioritizing the bilateral protocols over that one)
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    @michielbdejong five-bells-ledger actually. Since there was no persistent database for the ledger, I just choosed to use ethereum accounts. Actually any back-end storage implementing the https://github.com/earizon/java-vertx-ledger/blob/earizon-ethereumBackend/src/main/java/com/everis/everledger/ifaces/account/IfaceLocalAccount.java must work.
    @emschwartz , Actually this was a PoC ledger trying to replicate five-bells-ledger in java. Bilateral protocols and (ideally a java connector) was next on my list. (Historically I developed it just to get used / trained with Interledger)
    Evan Schwartz
    @emschwartz
    Got it. Then I wouldn't change anything for that
    My recommendation for where to get started with an interledger implementation is to implement a sending client like https://github.com/interledgerjs/ilp that uses the Bilateral Transfer Protocol (BTP) for transfers
    I'm doing that in Rust at the moment. I'm cleaning up the code now and I should have it on github this week
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    @emschwartz +1
    Evan Schwartz
    @emschwartz
    @earizon The code I've got so far is here: https://github.com/emschwartz/ilp-rs. I'm a bit stuck on how to implement the plugin abstraction and particularly the async parts like events and functions that return futures, but I got it to the point where it can successfully send an SPSP payment to the JS implementation and get the fulfillment back
    Adrian Hope-Bailie
    @adrianhopebailie
    https://github.com/interledger/interledger/wiki/Architecture
    You sent: interledgerjs/btp-toolbox#2
    interledgerjs/btp-toolbox#2
    http://dev.lightning.community/overview/
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    https://earizon.github.io/IT_notes/Interledger/interledger_map.html
    Adrian Hope-Bailie
    @adrianhopebailie
    Sorry David, I think I cut you off there
    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    No worries - can't remember what I was going to say, so it must not have been very important.
    ;)
    Btw - here's a link to a quick branch I put together to demonstrate how easy immutables is to use: interledger/java-ilp-core@724bcb3
    To get it working in your IDE, you'll want to follow the directions on the immutables website -- for Intellij, at least, you have to configured the annotation processor in the IDE so it can pickup the immutables annotations. But on the command-line, it should just build.
    See here for IDE config: http://immutables.github.io/apt.html
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon

    Restarting a old discussion. I'm not convinced that using and Interface for value-objects is a good idea. Providing a POJO with a constructor and private final fields with setters will translate missing parameter errors from runtime ( MyClass myInstance = WhatEver.builder().setParam1().setParam2 ...build() ) to compile time ( MyClass myInstance = new MyClass(param1, param2, ...) ) , following the fail-fast design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-fast), one the few "absolute true" in software design. The only real scenario where Interfaces are suitable IMHO is that in which the value-object is "big" and so different strategies for storing the data can be applied in different context (embedded, servers, clusters,...).

    First results on Google - https://www.google.com/search?&q=interface++%22value+object%22 - looks to favor NOT to use Interfaces for value objects :
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25457028/designing-value-object-by-interface
    https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/185636/should-i-create-interfaces-for-data-transfer-objects

    of course interfaces can still be very useful for value-object for the purpose of "tagging" the classes/instances as having some sort of property not directly related to value storage, but to the orthogonal properties like Printable, Serializable, Orderable, Comparable, TaintedInput, UntaintedOutput, ... )

    David Fuelling
    @sappenin
    Interesting points - I agree that compile-time fail-fast is a good goal, but the I think this is a flaw in the way we've constructed our builders, not necessarily in the usage of an interface vs. concrete class. The pattern you're looking for is called a "staged-builder", which is a compile-time safe way to ensure that all required attributes of a builder are set. For example, see here in the Immutables project where you can configure the generated builder to implement the behavior you are seeking: http://immutables.github.io/immutable.html#staged-builder
    Also, another scenario where interfaces are preferred is when we want the implementation to vary. Since java-ilp-core is a library that we want to be widely used, I think it's important to assume that most users of our library will simply use the value objects we provide, but for those users who desire not to use our value objects, we give them the ability to create their own implementations without deviating from the interfaces that we've also defined.
    I think this is particularly painful in java-ilp-core because we have a lot of value objects, and so the library has a lot of boilerplate because of the decision to use interfaces. You can look at my PR above and see how the usage of something like the Immutables project allows us to keep using interfaces, but remove almost 99% of all the boilerplate.
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    (FYI: The Hyperledger STC meeting is at 4:00 pm ECT, to join:
    https://www.gotomeeting.com/join/613310429
    or dial in using your phone: US (toll-free): +1-877-309-2070 US: +1-312-757-3119 Access Code: 613-310-429
    @sappenin : Just in case, Adrian confirmed he can NOT attend the meeting. I'm not sure if someone from Ripple will do.
    Michiel de Jong
    @michielbdejong
    @earizon just to double check, ECT is Ecuador Time?
    Enrique Arizón Benito
    @earizon
    Sorry ECT European (Summer) Central Time