These are chat archives for jdubray/sam

14th
Feb 2018
david kaye
@dfkaye_twitter
Feb 14 2018 06:56
@jdubray -- try this link instead - https://twitter.com/BenLesh/status/963236093733756928
I must have mis-copied/trimmed the URL previously
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 11:10
I do like the "pseudo-solution" qualifier. Anyways, I think @VaseJS is going to get upset, not much to add. All this is Cargo Cult, thinking that Software Engineering is not a science is the problem, has been the problem, will continue being the problem until we take a hard look at what we are trying to do.
Incidentally, Redux has always been "aligned" with Elm, so proper credit should be given to Evan Czaplicki not Dan Abramov.
Nivani
@Nivani
Feb 14 2018 11:47
I have been wanting to say something similar, but haven't found the right words. A "pseudo-solution" is indeed a nice term. We critique a lot of frameworks because we run into problems after using them for a while, but seem to forget the problems they fixed for you.
Most developers wouldn't come close to something as valuable if they tried rolling their own.
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 12:12
I would argue that Frameworks exist only because for any given domain (front-end for instance), it would be impossible for 99.9999% of developers to properly factor temporal logic, state and relationships.
It is not until we take a hard look at STAR + Temporal Logic that we will be able to sort out all these questions.
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:03
Lambda Calculus was invented at a time where there was no computers and where computation was algorithmic. No offense to the absolutely brilliant men who came up with it, I am less than the smallest fraction as smart as them, but I am still smart enough to think that there is a disconnect between Lambda Calculus and the kinds of systems we are building today.
ORM is another example of such frameworks.
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:28
@jdubray why would I get upset? :D
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:31
:-)
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:36

What do mean when you say this? that TL, state and relationships is too hard alone? too hand because of frameworks? too hard because its unknown?

I would argue that Frameworks exist only because for any given domain (front-end for instance), it would be impossible for 99.9999% of developers to properly factor temporal logic, state and relationships.

Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:41
When you look carefully it seems that the code that's difficult to write always revolve around these three concepts and most projects require huge amounts of that kind of code.
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:42
got it
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:42
Without the proper constructs in the programming language it's very hard to write TL code or manage relationships.
OO for instance has only one type of relationships: 1-to-many ( a property of type class) and it has no way to know if you mean containment or association. Everything else is "in the code" and hence in the head of the developer
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:43
it may be an industry blind spot and for good reason. most new devs don’t have a proper foundation and no formal training anymore. they latch on to a framework of the month and believe they are good software devs. TL is a completely foreign concept and unless a framework is handling it for them and explicitly mentioning it, they have no clue
the drive to get a job because one “knows” a framework seems more important than actually know how to develop software
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:47
I agree, but programming languages don't see to make it easy(ier). I see experienced, software engineers unable to think properly with these semantics. In other words, a Class structure or a pure function, or even some cool RxJS stream are not going to help you very much when it comes to writing STAR+TL code.
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:50
but people must first understand the importance of STAR+TL code. Its the same with any framework/ technique. AWS had to convince people to use TLA+ in the same manner but they proved it. STAR+TL must do the same thing. Saying its important means nothing to most devs becasue of cognative dissonace. Once they latch on to a framework, it becomes their religion…until a new one comes out :D
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:51
yes, that's the problem, I don't have much solution to offer.
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 13:51
@jdubray but you do!
Its why we’re here. Its a problem we didn’t know we had like when a commerical tells you that not smelling like a sports drink (Axe) is stopping you from getting women. A problem i didn’t know I had and Axe is the solution. In our case its TL and STAR/SAM is the solution. basic marketing
Jean-Jacques Dubray
@jdubray
Feb 14 2018 13:56
It's a good way to look at it. That being said you are facing OOP, FP, (F)RP, and all frameworks, that requires some heavy lifting.
VaseJS
@VaseJS
Feb 14 2018 14:01
That’s not an issue when you have the proper team
Fred Daoud
@foxdonut
Feb 14 2018 14:42
But it's like losing weight. Although there are tons of "solutions" out there, people will never stop looking for what's next, hoping that it's better than the previous. So don't stop, don't give up, don't say that you don't have much solution to offer.
Or, as in @VaseJS 's example, men will never stop looking for ways to get women, whether it's a shower gel, deodorant, or a razor with 18 blades :laughing:
devin ivy
@devinivy
Feb 14 2018 14:58
it must be valentines day
Fred Daoud
@foxdonut
Feb 14 2018 15:13
lol