These are chat archives for jescalan/roots

24th
Oct 2016
Bud Parr
@budparr
Oct 24 2016 15:54
@tkraak @jescalan unfortunately, the videos we made are a total bust. I somehow screwed up the sound and it sounds like the Eraserhead soundtrack. Very sorry about that. Bout time I get a real videographer. Hope your new job is getting off to a good start, @tkraak
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 16:08
too bad! that's ok though, it happens. next time :)
Bud Parr
@budparr
Oct 24 2016 16:09
Thanks for understanding @jescalan
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 17:50
I just don't get it. here we r talking about a video from a speech and that it would be great to have, on the other side it is so easy and quick to do some videos about different major topics when ever you have time on your computer an it would help sooooooooooooooooo damm much.
Really don't understand why this is not more used. Then a lot of Q and discussions in gitter would be obsolet and many more developer could see and more easy understand how spike or roots works and become fanboys.....
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:00
it seems like you are pretty frustrated about something @oliver41
are there parts of the documentation that you feel aren't enough to make things clear?
are there any topics for videos you'd like to see?
just want to remind you that I am just one guy over here and there's only so much I can do, but any constructive feedback on the state of the docs, or things that are confusing I would be happy to hear
I haven't got to spike video tutorials yet, but there are plenty out there for roots already
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:03
yes yes and yes
but i'm talking about spike, I think the topic of your talk was spike and not roots so I jumped in in the discussion.
I know that u r this 'lonely guy' out there but that doesn't count for an excuse if u ask me (sorry for that, I will explain)
It's a similar problem with bootsrap where just 2 guys r working in there spare time on a project what thousands and thousands of people use and they are waitung since more than 3 years on an update from 3.x to v4.
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:09
So we have to think about if may be Foundation what is not open source is the better product to work with, but bc it has better quality but it is better managed
Here for this situation, why do u try to change evth all together? Why don't u go step by sep? why not finding a stabile version 1.0 with posthtml or even jade or pug in the first step and then stepping up to reshape? Why not presenting a 'workable and usable solution' with some loaders and plugins for (stylus + jade, what we know from roots) and some options/examples how to set it up for some other dependencies so that developers who are new to this can begin to work with it and use it and later switch to the newest specs.
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:18
With webpack as the base of spike u can do and include everything and that was one of the hugh points u was starting this project. It took me until yesterday evening to find the spike-roots template where i could see how you set it up to work with stylus and jade. I learned a lot to see the package.json and the webpack.config and this was really important for me but I don't see any hint on the website or anywhere else to this template ( I know u don't want to push it but this is important, even just to learn how to set up different loaders and how evth. works together)
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:23
So I think at least some videos with different config examples would help and make it a lot easier for everybody and u don't have to answer Questions over and over again, just make some short video about it and everybody with the same problem can see it
Daniel Box
@dbox
Oct 24 2016 18:24
you realize you're saying all this in a room full of people happy to help you with any questions that you have right?
take a step back and realize people are making this tool for you for free
and start with some "thank-you"s
jeez louise
or, if you see there is a place where things can be improved (ie videos) and they're "so easy " to make, then, now that've learned a little more by diving in, help make the videos
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:42
so first, there is an entire section of the docs that details how to set up plugins and loaders here: https://spike.readme.io/docs/plugins-loaders
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:43
@dbox I don't want to criticize anybody, these are just my thoughts and ideas. But this topic what u r talking about is exactly what i think is a problem. Nothing in life is free, at least it's a question od decission. If I search a 'product' to work with it's just about quality and reliability. When u use 'free' as an excuse for what ever it's getting dangerous and u r going the easy way. A lot of people/devs putting a lot of time and work in to understand and work with this product on their own risk but they trust the guys behind the product that they will make something great for all. All SSG are 'free' but that doesn't mean u should use it as an excuse for anything. And by the way I had NO problems to pay for a great SSG or for Bootstrap if it is a great working Product with a team behind I can trust. So please don't play the 'it's free card' ........
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:43
second, i dont actually get a lot of questions about this topic in this room
so its not like im sitting here answering the same questions over and over and not making docs
if i do know what is hanging people up, i will make resources for this
i can make that more prominent in the readme if you think that would help
im not asking for money to use this, im asking for expertise this early in the game
if i could get enough people to fund working on this for more of my time like vuejs has, i would definitely consider this, but its too early in the game for that to be the case, so maybe later
the fact is, if you are not willing to contribute to bootstrap if you need something from it, or reach out to the founders and offer to pay them to implement X feature that you want, you should not be using it, and should instead seek out paid software
same here, and same with any OSS
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:48
you're right -- nothing is free. the cost of using roots or spike is that you must be willing to contribute (or pay, but we havent had anyone even ask for this yet) if you want something that we dont yet have
still a pretty damn good deal imho
Daniel Box
@dbox
Oct 24 2016 18:48
:clap:
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:53
Ok, I think I understand. So my choice to try to use/work with spike was a wrong one
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:56
Perhaps it was? If so, your choice to work with any open source software was the wrong one as well
There isn't a single OSS author who has any obligation to implement features for you or make fixes for you personally
You are not paying any of them, no contract is in place
Any time you use any OSS project that you are not able to patch yourself if there's a problem, you are taking on risk
It does not matter how big or important the project is
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:57
I didn't ask for any special implementation.....
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:58
Did you ask for anything at all?
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 18:58
Just try to aswer the Q u asked me above
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 18:58
haha idn?
if not, i dont see why there's an issue
if so, same answer. no OSS software maintainer on any project that you use is obligated under any contract to fulfill anyones requests
this is why i say in the article linked above that using OSS that you cannot contribute to, or are not paying for on some outside support program is a liability
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 19:00
so please tell me about my requests
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 19:00
only you can tell me about your requests
they arent mine haha
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 19:00
I don't see anything funny here.....
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 19:01
this conversation doesnt seem to be going anywhere
is there something i can clarify or help with here?
oliver41
@oliver41
Oct 24 2016 19:02
nope
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 19:02
oook :+1:
Let me go back to the question you asked earlier which wasn't answered though
why do u try to change evth all together? Why don't u go step by sep? why not finding a stabile version 1.0 with posthtml or even jade or pug in the first step and then stepping up to reshape? Why not presenting a 'workable and usable solution' with some loaders and plugins for (stylus + jade, what we know from roots) and some options/examples how to set it up for some other dependencies
  • Roots isn't changing, it is staying the same -- stable, post 1.0, works fine
  • Posthtml is significantly less stable than reshape, which is why it was switched out
  • We did ship with jade/pug originally, but it created limitations for those with other preferences
  • There is a template provided with stylus and jade, which you know about already, and there is a docs page for how to configure loaders and plugins which was linked above
Jeff Escalante
@jescalan
Oct 24 2016 19:09
And as always if there is anything confusing, or that needs clarification I am more than happy to field questions or create docs or videos to solve these issues free of charge, provided the requests are calm and respectful
:sparkling_heart:
For you @oliver41 -- if you are angry about something, which it seems you are, and would like to use other tools, that is just fine, and thanks for being part of the community for the time you were. If you'd like to follow up in a productive direction, I'd suggest taking a stab at the questions I asked earlier in this discussion, which would most easily provide the information necessary to get help:
  • are there parts of the documentation that you feel aren't enough to make things clear?
  • are there any topics for videos you'd like to see?