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    Bruce Durling
    @otfrom
    but w/pallet you have to write your shell scripts so they are idempotent (generally check to see if something is installed, if it is do nothing, otherwise install it)
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    @martintrojer how am I 'wrong' about puppet
    Assuming one can't be wrong about ones own opinions
    you are wrong about puppet 'If you run puppet twice, the second time it will do nothing.' is not true
    if you dont specify dependencies correctly it make take 2 runs
    if you dont guard an exec it will always run
    @martintrojer 'But, the actual point of loops in puppet is misguided', I didnt add them to puppet, they did
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    my point is/was that they got basic shit like scoping wrong (which they admit by later fixing it)
    and that their users expected loops, which they later added
    You seem to think only puppet has idempotency too if I understand you correctly
    Don't get me started on the monstrosity that is http://docs.ansible.com/playbooks_loops.html
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    Puppet people seem to think making DAGs is hard
    they also dont even use the fact it's a DAG to parallise, as they cant be sure it's safe
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    You are mostly writing ruby if you want to do anything moderately complex was my argument, eg 'Make sure a line exists in a file'
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    @thatommyhall so what's you're preference for CM tooling?
    Benedek Fazekas
    @benedekfazekas
    yeah i would be interested too. you don't seem to be very fond of ansible
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    ha, I think we are groping towards something
    but nothing is there yet
    something like chefs DSL with Ansibles execution model and 'batteries included' thing
    Benedek Fazekas
    @benedekfazekas
    haha, it sounds like you should team up with @martintrojer and go for it
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    Seriously, is there a gap in market here?
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    I'd do a Clojure DSL I think, but yeah - agentless, masterless
    I should take longer look at Pallet
    https://github.com/vektra/tachyon has Go agent, Lisp DSL
    Im off to have a hike anyhow
    chat soon y'all
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    @thattommyhall Open source it and we can all join in. If its monetizable could sell consultancy/ support ;-)
    Benedek Fazekas
    @benedekfazekas
    have a nice one @thattommyhall
    Chris McDevitt
    @minimal
    NixOS/Ops has many things to like and seems more "correct by design"
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    thanks @minimal , ill watch it
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    I saw a talk by the guy that invented cfengine and I think he set the tone with 'convergence'
    and the declarative thing is bollocks sometimes
    if you use the nginx module, that allows you to fetch nginx from loads of different places, compile modules in and stuff and then change it to use a different source does it work?
    does it work for the N*(N-1) different ways you might do that?
    you can make the 'correct' edit of your purely declaritive, lets forget there is state code
    and it wont work
    because your CM tool has not considered properly all the states it might be in
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    thats why the immutable server thing is interesting
    thattommyhall
    @thattommyhall
    can say that my manifests get me from a known state (eg base ubuntu) to what I want
    not 'hey just write what you want and we will make it happen, where you are does not matter and it will never hit a weird error because we made a DAG of what you said you needed and all those 3rd party things you rely on will also just work'
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    Morning.
    Bruce Durling
    @otfrom
    @chrishowejones you might enjoy this from @yeller https://github.com/yeller/matcha
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    @otfrom looks interesting. Might try it out - looks synonymous with libraries like hamcrest in Java.
    @otfrom I'm thinking of writing a port of yatspec in Clojure to 'publish' tests and notes in a format that can facilitate conversations with non-developers. matcha might fit into this as I need a structure that reads well when published (at least in English to begin with).
    Korny Sietsma
    @kornysietsma
    Matcha looks interesting. Mostly I use midje, but I keep planning to take another look at the alternatives. I don't like midje when it's macro nature breaks things, but the syntax generally suits me.
    Chris Howe-Jones
    @chrishowejones
    I like midje for the same reasons. I use clojure.test too but I find midje more readable although I can't quantify why. A fellow Java dev also commented that he preferred the style of midje when he saw both.