These are chat archives for node-forward/discussions

24th
Oct 2014
Jeremiah Senkpiel
@Fishrock123
Oct 24 2014 13:52
(generally) press = hyped up trash
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 14:47
Companies can only get on the board if they are both current top contributors I still can't figure it out how a company could be a top contributor
Albert Engelbrecht
@droppedoncaprica
Oct 24 2014 15:25
@a0viedo I think the idea is the companies that have full time staff that are working on node core
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 16:51
I think Rockbot's tweet last night nailed it for me: https://twitter.com/rockbot/status/525342672601378816
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:52
that's a pretty amazing tweet
Albert Engelbrecht
@droppedoncaprica
Oct 24 2014 16:52
^
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:57
i've actually spent a lot of time talking to companies that would have full time people on core if 1) it weren't owned by a company and/or 2) there were active contributors they could hire
some companies have people they would throw at it but can't justify it while it doesn't live at a neutral party
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 16:58
You can imagine the discussion we've had at Rackspace (I have 3 PSF board members on my team, also members of the openstack tech committee, etc)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:58
but, even more companies simply don't know how to hire people who might be able to contribute to core someday, they need a list of contributors who are active that they can go after
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 16:58
and it's totally understandable
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:58
and one of the reasons we aren't growing new contributors is the ownership/dictatorship issues
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 16:58
I get consistently ask when is Joyent going to give Node to a foundation :)
(as if I have the magic answer since I'm in the node community)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:59
it's somewhat telling that after small changes to the contribution policy and a week of being public the fork we had up added 2 contributors
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 16:59
For me it's always the risk factor; what if joyent has a course change?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 16:59
at this point i've talked to people at damn near every software foundation
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:00
there's a very fine line between a BDFL and a MDFL
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:00
and one thing i've learned is that no company has ever has a successful project and put it in to a foundation when they have any other choice
and that goes all the way back to Mozilla
i don't think we need to look at "what ifs" anymore
what is currently happening is bad enough to do something
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:01
So unless Ive missed some revisionist history, that's what Rackspace did when it created the Openstack foundation and gave away the IP
In fact people were reacting by saying we were crazy
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:01
;) i've talked to people close to that, Rackspace wasn't given much of a choice :)
it was presented as "look at all this awesome shit we did with your tech, this is going in to a foundation, are you?"
i also get the impression that people felt OpenStack was somewhat innevitable
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:03
there was certainly a land grab for the the canonical open source cloud
and/or a horse race
+1 on the CoC thing btw
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:03
ya, and the market was distributed enough that nobody could take majority market share but amazon, so everyone who isn't amazon had a big incentive to get together
the CoC should have happened a long time ago, and it's embarrassing that it didn't.
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:04
yea, our biggest challenge is going to be the sales/marketing orgs who manage the big events
(in doing it across the company)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:05
none of this is rocket science, most of the time these are like the bare minimum we should be doing, and the fact that they have been so hard to accomplish in the past is why I setup Node Forward
ya, we're in a good place at DigitalOcean, we no longer sponsor those conferences anyway :)
nobody could find a good reason to spend the kind of money we had spent on Disrupt and SXSW
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 17:06
and what did @tjfontaine said about that?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:06
it's quite literally the cost of a dozen developer events
@a0viedo what did he say about what?
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:07
We still have massive enterprise lead-gen going on at those big events; It'll probably be easier to get those events to add a CoC than it will to get universal support at rackspace to not do events without one
(and then once all of our events do a CoC, it'll be easier to enforce the policy globally)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:08
if you have lawyers they'll tell you that you can't have one
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:08
because it assumes liability I expect?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:08
that's what lawyers do, they tell you to do the thing that has zero legal risk, which means always do nothing
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 17:08
what you said about the bare minimum being so hard to accomplish, I mean @tjfontaine had to realize all of this
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:08
Running joke when I was at MSFT, was that Legal never wanted us to ship a single product :)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:08
but doing nothing is risky in other ways and it's your responsibility as a company to balance that risk
@a0viedo TJ hasn't said much of anything, he's been invited to all the Node Forward TC calls
but i don't think it's fair to expect him to
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:10
and correct me if I'm wrong, he hasn't declined, he's just not responded?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:10
he likes Joyent, he has friends there, he doesn't have the kind of relationship with that company that the community has
@kenperkins correct
it isn't fair to put him in the middle of all of this
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:11
I don't see how Joyent thinks they have a choice tbh; if they don't cooperate a fork emerges, materially damaging the situation
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:11
the changes we want would have to be approved by the board of directors, so pointing at TJ is pretty unfair
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:11
He's in a tight spot
sorry lol
bbiab walking to coffee
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:14
cool
anyway, I'm not going to speculate about what Joyent will/won't do
that's not productive, and other people are working with them who are better at it
if tomorrow Joyent put everything in a Foundation, it doesn't fix all of our problems
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 17:15
I think it's much better to put all of that effort in node-forward
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:15
the community has been disaffected from engaging in a large portion of the problems we face
we need the community to take responsibility and get engaged again
without that momentum we can't get anything done, with or without a foundation
Kyle Mathews
@KyleAMathews
Oct 24 2014 17:16
+100
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:24
How can I best get involved?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:25
we're still in the early stages so the most important things are
1) identifying problems and creating experiments to solve them
2) promotion and awareness
3) everyday engagement
watch the help and discussions repo
we need to get some more momentum behind the help repo, and probably some better messaging
Albert Engelbrecht
@droppedoncaprica
Oct 24 2014 17:26
Ahh, i didn't even know there was a help repo haha
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:26
although i saw that @othiym23 created a branch so he might be working on that
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:26
Help is an self-support?
err as in
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:27
the idea is that it can replace the mailing list and IRC someday
Issues have better moderations tools, and people put reputation in to GitHub so that helps as well
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:27
is the vision an app? or just content?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:27
it's just "a place to get help"
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:27
awesome
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:27
similar to the mailing list but without crazy people being like FIBERS!
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 17:28
lol
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:28
it's a bit tangential, but that issue saying "lets make node-forward not node (spidermonkey, non-async) reminded me of your blog post on promises, and fracturing the community
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:28
i'm not too worried about that one
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:28
I think that was #9
when I started reading it, I was so confused, because I was thinking "this isn't node"
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:29
i'd encourage that kind of experimentation, because it's so radical it has a 99% chance of failure and if it does work then it will because it is significantly better than Node, so go for it
i'd actually encourage a "new Node" that isn't compatible with Node
runtime.js is the closest thing
and it's pretty amazing actually
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:30
I assume you've talked to folks like Alex Gaynor and the whole python 2.7/3.0 situation
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:30
my guess is that once it's usable people will put work in to the next big JS platform on top of it
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 17:30
I didn't thought that starting from scratch was being considered
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:30
i lived through that :) 3.0 was released shortly before Node was announced and I moved
i don't think there's much value in trying to be "Node but with a different opinion"
but runtime.js is rethinking the whole idea of what a platform and operating system are
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:31
this one: https://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ (again, I assume you've read this)
(and now you mention you lived it)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:32
i've read it, but i think he misses the real problem
which isn't that this happened but that the community around Python core is so disconnected from what people actually use Python for that they thought it was a good idea
and that goes all the way back to the beginning of the project
in the earliest days of a project it lives as a reaction to whatever else is going on
in the case of Python it was people getting very fed up with Perl
the expressiveness was making maintaining programs way too hard
and so the community that gravitated towards Python had two core values that still persist to this day, and can probably never change
1) the language is the most important thing. all problems in programming can be solved with grammar.
2) moore's law is the solution to performance. why optimize the language for performance is computers are getting faster?
those still persist
and you can tell because they broke the language in a huge way for relatively small grammatical changes and reduced the performance by half
Python 3.0 was twice as slow
Python 3.1 merged unladden swallow, so it was as performant as latest 2.x but still twice as slow as 2.x unladden swallow
they still don't have a good concurrency story
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:37
not one that actually has a decent community of modules that are compatible with it
and worst of all, they still have the worst packaging
i mean, now even PHP is kicking their ass when it comes to packaging
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:38
are you referring to composer?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:39
ya
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:39
yea, my PHP colleagues give the python folks crap about it
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:39
the growth PHP is seeing in packages is tremendous, and entirely because of composer
it really is NPM for PHP
they even say as much
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:39
not a bad way to pitch it
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:40
but for Python, they would need to make changes to their module system, or create a new one in userland
i was looking at writing an "NPM for Swift" and it basically would mean writing a new module system in userland
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:41
Do you think there is anything more to "help" than just "log an issue if you need help?" or is its beauty the simplicity
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:46
i created a gitter room for help as well
hopefully gitter will have embeds some day as well
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 17:47
I saw that you created a second gitter there
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 17:48
also, if someone wants to run some ancient fortran libraries through emscripten and publish them :)
node-forward/discussions#1
we need to get this shit running in node :) http://www.netlib.org/lapack/
Evan Tahler
@evantahler
Oct 24 2014 18:04
+1 for math libs!
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Oct 24 2014 18:04
<sigh> i need to go back to school and take math
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 18:04
R is basically 70% fortran code with bindings :)
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 18:09
same for scipy?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 18:09
scipy even more so because it doesn't also implement a language :)
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
Oct 24 2014 18:12
it's weird that nobody worked in this before
how's paypal doing all their maths?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 18:31
i doubt that part is in JS :)
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
Oct 24 2014 23:47
I will try to carve out some time to do some stuff around node-forward/help, but my primary objective there is to find as many people that I can delegate to as possible
anybody who's interested is welcome to get commit / moderation rights
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 23:50
ya, the README should say that :)
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
Oct 24 2014 23:50
good point
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 23:50
also, moderation isn't quite a concern yet since there are no questions yet :)
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
Oct 24 2014 23:51
my goal is to see how far I can get with that repo without having to open a text editor
so far I created the README and got the Gitter badge in there strictly through the web interface
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 23:51
good call, i use that web interface a lot actually
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
Oct 24 2014 23:58
there
that's a start
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 23:58
retweeted from like all my accounts :)
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
Oct 24 2014 23:58
so my pocket tells me ;)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
Oct 24 2014 23:59
at some point you should send something to the mailing list about it