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Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
I assume you've talked to folks like Alex Gaynor and the whole python 2.7/3.0 situation
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
my guess is that once it's usable people will put work in to the next big JS platform on top of it
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
I didn't thought that starting from scratch was being considered
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
i lived through that :) 3.0 was released shortly before Node was announced and I moved
i don't think there's much value in trying to be "Node but with a different opinion"
but runtime.js is rethinking the whole idea of what a platform and operating system are
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
this one: https://alexgaynor.net/2013/dec/30/about-python-3/ (again, I assume you've read this)
(and now you mention you lived it)
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
i've read it, but i think he misses the real problem
which isn't that this happened but that the community around Python core is so disconnected from what people actually use Python for that they thought it was a good idea
and that goes all the way back to the beginning of the project
in the earliest days of a project it lives as a reaction to whatever else is going on
in the case of Python it was people getting very fed up with Perl
the expressiveness was making maintaining programs way too hard
and so the community that gravitated towards Python had two core values that still persist to this day, and can probably never change
1) the language is the most important thing. all problems in programming can be solved with grammar.
2) moore's law is the solution to performance. why optimize the language for performance is computers are getting faster?
those still persist
and you can tell because they broke the language in a huge way for relatively small grammatical changes and reduced the performance by half
Python 3.0 was twice as slow
Python 3.1 merged unladden swallow, so it was as performant as latest 2.x but still twice as slow as 2.x unladden swallow
they still don't have a good concurrency story
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
not one that actually has a decent community of modules that are compatible with it
and worst of all, they still have the worst packaging
i mean, now even PHP is kicking their ass when it comes to packaging
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
are you referring to composer?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
ya
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
yea, my PHP colleagues give the python folks crap about it
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
the growth PHP is seeing in packages is tremendous, and entirely because of composer
it really is NPM for PHP
they even say as much
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
not a bad way to pitch it
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
but for Python, they would need to make changes to their module system, or create a new one in userland
i was looking at writing an "NPM for Swift" and it basically would mean writing a new module system in userland
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
Do you think there is anything more to "help" than just "log an issue if you need help?" or is its beauty the simplicity
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
i created a gitter room for help as well
hopefully gitter will have embeds some day as well
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
I saw that you created a second gitter there
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
also, if someone wants to run some ancient fortran libraries through emscripten and publish them :)
node-forward/discussions#1
we need to get this shit running in node :) http://www.netlib.org/lapack/
Evan Tahler
@evantahler
+1 for math libs!
Ken Perkins
@kenperkins
<sigh> i need to go back to school and take math
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
R is basically 70% fortran code with bindings :)
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
same for scipy?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
scipy even more so because it doesn't also implement a language :)
Alejandro Oviedo
@a0viedo
it's weird that nobody worked in this before
how's paypal doing all their maths?
Mikeal Rogers
@mikeal
i doubt that part is in JS :)
Forrest L Norvell
@othiym23
I will try to carve out some time to do some stuff around node-forward/help, but my primary objective there is to find as many people that I can delegate to as possible