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Ben Hutchison
@benhutchison

I'll create a ticket, capture the discussion from here. A couple of comments:

Is there a problem of duplicating the cats-core syntax code in algebra?

Its code duplication. We'd end up with 2 copies of the same code to solve the same problems. Over time they can diverge, leading to slightly different syntax depending where you imported from.

To me its a fallback option. I'd prefer to try tackle the root problem and migrate the cats-kernel syntax into kernel where it belongs. only if thats intractable then resort to code duplication.

Otherwise we need source and binary compatibility from machinist as well.

Machinist is a bit special though, its macro generators rather than another library. I think its pretty stable, unlikely to be an problem...?

every release of cats breaks binary compatibility.

Are you referring to kernel, or cats core?

Cats-core is pre 1.0. My read of the consensus feeling from the community is that binary compat pre-1.0 is less important than "getting it right". After 1.0 the pace of change will slow - thats the stated plan IIUC..

As a maintainer of big codebases you probably feel the impact more than most. But if you're building atop pre-1.0 software you signed up to that to some degree..?

Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
After 1.0 the pace of change will slow - thats the stated plan IIUC..
For cats-kernel, the pace of change will be glacial: there is a commitment to preserve binary compatibility across minor releases.
I don't know the situation for machinist. It's pretty stable, sure, but what is the commitment and what is the track record of that dependency? Code duplication is a minor problem compared to the diamond problem of dependencies.
Paul Phillips
@paulp
FYI the readme at https://github.com/typelevel/algebra is still suggesting 0.6.0, but 0.7.0 was published in January.
Kai(luo) Wang
@kailuowang
@/all any concerns if we break cats.kernel bin compat in the upcoming 1.0.0 release?
I mean the cats 1.0.0 MF release coming next week or so.
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
@kailuowang Not a big deal for the spire ecosystem; but try posting on the algebird chatroom to get feedback from the other community
Kai(luo) Wang
@kailuowang
Thanks
Shion
@ShionAt
Please support my attempt to change the world of the project, spread it, baptize it
https://github.com/ShionAt/Keys
https://twitter.com/ShionKeys
Pascal GANAYE
@paganaye
hi is there a mathematician in this plane?
I have a question about beziers surfaces.
The question is: Can I define a bezier surface with only 8 points?
I don't know how to position the center point
jeremyrsmith
@jeremyrsmith
@paganaye not a mathematician, but if you have 4 corner points then you have 4 control points as well. You could take them in groups of 3, find midpoint of hypotenuse, and take the mean of those midpoints to form a control point for the center?
also take a look at Raph Levien’s PhD thesis (creator of Spiro, http://levien.com/phd/phd.html). I haven’t really, but he talks about lots of properties of curves including inference of bezier control points
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
So I’m trying to port the Algebra laws to the new cats style laws and I’m a bit confused about how the LatticeProperties work, maybe someone can help me out?
@johnynek ? :D
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
I can chime in.
@LukaJCB as a start, look at "Lattices as algebraic structures" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(order)
Otherwise, just prepare the PR with stubs for the Lattice stuff, and I'll try to complete.
Thanks for helping! I'd like to move Spire to cats 1.0.0 as well!
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Okay, I guess my actual question is, should the MeetSemilatticeLaws inherit the SemilatticeLaws?
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
And analogously the BoundedMeetSemiLatticeLaws from the BoundedSemilatticeLaws
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
Not exactly
A semilattice is defined as a specialized semigroup, basically it's commutative and idempotent, i.e. x |+| y |+| y = x |+| y and x |+| x |+| y = x |+| y
A meet semilattice is completely equivalent to a semilattice, except that its operation is called "meet".
A join semilattice is completely equivalent to a semilattice, except that its operation is called "join".
A lattice is both a meet and join semilattice (that's why we define join and meet semilattices)
Think of it the same way as a ring: it has both an additive and multiplicative monoid inside, but they are not the same, so Ring[A] does not directly inherit from Monoid[A], but rather AdditiveMonoid[A] (or actually AdditiveGroup[A]), and MultiplicativeMonoid[A]
(the additive monoid in a ring is always commutative, and the multiplicative monoid can be commutative if it is a commutative ring; a field is actually a multiplicative group over nonzero elements, but you get the spirit)
So I suggest, for the tests, to write them in the same way for the semilattice stuff and the ring stuff
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Okay I might create a PR with the Lattice stuff, and then when we find the solution I can apply it to ring as well :+1:
Pascal GANAYE
@paganaye
merci @jeremyrsmith
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
@LukaJCB Do you mind sharing your WIP? I will need to interface cats and spire in the same project, so I'd like to move in with the update!
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Yes sure, It’s not close to done yet though, unfortunately
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
#206
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
Cool, thanks!
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
I’ll probably have some time to work on it on wednesday or thursday :+1:
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
@LukaJCB I started as well to port the Spire tests to the new cats style, see https://github.com/non/spire/tree/experimental
(BTW, this branch is a melting pot of several PR that are waiting for a review, see the files IsEq.scala, AdditiveSemigroup* in spire-laws)
In particular, I'd like to have a test harness for primitive types, where the out-of-range behavior is undefined, and thus should not make tests fail
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
@LukaJCB I've made quite a bit of progress, but not yet on the Lattice stuff (mostly rings)
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Awesome! Thanks for the great work!
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
@LukaJCB For the ring hierarchy, I've removed the original abstraction (the base stuff, etc...) at the price of duplicating the laws for Group, AdditiveGroup and MultiplicativeGroup. In the end, the code is simpler and not much longer.
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Sounds great! Is there a way I can have a look?
Denis Rosset
@denisrosset
https://github.com/non/spire/tree/experimental in laws/src/main/scala/spire/laws
Martin Duhem
@Duhemm
Hey guys, we're moving to sbt 1.0 with Dotty, so I ported typelevel/algebra's build to sbt 1.0, because it's part of our community build. The changes are not big, but would you be interested in a PR? Here's the commit: dotty-staging/algebra@43cc85a
Luka Jacobowitz
@LukaJCB
Hey @denisrosset I’ve finished up the lattice law conversions
and would love to get your feedback before moving forward