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    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    NFS has a policy where they will pretty much never charge for excess bandwidth. If your site is super popular, you might have to pay $5 per month, but they are extremely accommodating when it comes to bandwidth. I think I'm paying $16/month with Hostgator for my Ode sites and a WP site. I could definitely cut that bill in half.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter
    As you know, one of the big benefits I see with a platform like Ode, any self-hosted platform, is that you can host it anywhere. So they can work for anyone as long as there is a minimal local infrastructure to support hosting. The vision has always been a platform that you can run from an internal drive or even a plugin in external drive, run locally, or over a local network, or host widely (whether public limited by permissions). I really want some platform that seems like an extension of a static website. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think Ode has the inside track on that.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    There are always going to be technical challenges in setting up these systems. Smoothing the way through documentation is the way to counteract this. And maybe containers are an answer ...
    There are MANY people advocating for retaining ownership and control of your own content, and Ode is my way of doing that. We just have to keep pushing for own- and roll-your-own.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter

    There are always going to be technical challenges

    I'd like to think there there are always going to be steps more than technical challenges.

    I deactivated my Twitter account by the way. But you can find me here or by email if you need to.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter

    I'm really trying to simplify the default theme. I don't care if it's fancy. I want it to work as a baseline without modification and then I want to make it as simple as possible to modify. Take primary navigation for a moment. It was more complicated but also more fragile. Now it's incredibly basic and a few additional rulesets and a little JS from now it will be better off for it. Want to include dozens of links? Go ahead.

    There's a version running at ode.io now. I could be handling this testing much more elegantly of course. For example (as you may know) rather than having the new theme be the default, I could just rename it and then explicitly request the working theme as part of the URL. But I figure this is my prerogative for having an exceedingly unpopular project. :)

    Ummm… The responsive styles are essentially broken at the moment because I've been renaming things. Currently only the "marquee" is intact. (That's the bit at the top that reads "A platform about you*"). If you'd like to see some of the additional styles I'm including for content (again, very basic) you I have a playground post here: https://ode.io/playground/testing-2_shy.html#testing-2_shy. (Shy posts are only visible when explicitly requested.)

    What else… Oh it currently includes a very simple 12 column floated "grid". I want the floats, flexbox, and grid to all be options, without a lot of fuss. To do that I'm really trying to think in very basic terms.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter
    Feel free to tell me what you'd like to see changed.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    One thing that might make it look better in terms of responsiveness is having a maximum width when it is showing on a regular PC so it's not so hard to read from left to right with too many words on one line.
    This message was deleted
    john henry
    @john_henry_twitter
    Rob, that looks pretty incredible. I’m on holiday for a few weeks, but if you need another set of eyes or hands for any features let me know.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe

    image.png

    Hard to read on a "big" screen because your eyes have a long way to travel from left to right.

    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    image.png
    I think the whole thing might have to float in the center because it looks a little funny with just a max-width: 800px on it.
    You can get it in the middle with margin-left and margin-right set as auto
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe

    This is with:
    body { margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; max-width: 900px; }

    This is a crazy hacky solution. My CSS is trial/mostly error, so I'm sure there's a better way to do this). The original looks great on mobile and tablet; I'm just worried that the text is too wide for desktop and laptop reading.

    image.png
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    I can't find the right color, but changing background-color controls the color on the sides.
    All of these suggestions are like "reverse" progressive enhancement -- so what looks good on mobile doesn't make it look worse on desktop.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    I've been looking into things like Docker images, but it looks like it's more expensive to deploy with things like Docker and Kubernetes than it is to use a VPS or shared hosting. And with that in mind, even though it's no longer the late 2000s, shared hosting is a very compelling choice because with the right provider it can be cheap and robust, plus somebody else is handling OS security.
    I'm not giving up on Docker just yet, but the learning curve is high.
    And even though my current shared host is expensive (it's up to $16 a month), I can do an unlimited number of individual sites using either separate domains or subdomains. But if I "limit" myself to, say, five sites, NearlyFreeSpeech.net is a pretty good deal. I did a test this week with Unison (my file synchronization solution of choice), and NFSN does provide that, and I got it to work. On Hostgator, I had to find a package for CentOS 6 and install my own on the server side.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter
    @passthejoe There is a max width. It's currently 1900px. There's a wrapper div around the whole thing. You can set the max-width to anything you like by just changing one CSS rule. One of the things I was going for is to make it so that every single rule, without exception, does what you'd think it does. The rulesets don't step on each other's toes. Space is controlled pretty deliberately. So for example vertical spacing is handled through bottom margins and top margins are typically zeroed, with the exception of headings. There shouldn't be any dangling extra space vertically or horizontally and the beginning and ends of things.
    Screen Shot 2019-06-27 at 12.01.19 AM.png
    @passthejoe Yep, I have it centered. If you're not seeing that it's probably related to one of the broken or 1/2 broken media queries. Whatever it is, it will get fixed. This is what I'm seeing (no changes).
    Just about everything can be directly changed with a single rule. If you want to change the background behind the wrapper, that's just the the background color on the body element
    body {
        background-color: #b3c2d0; /* #b3c2d0; – Light bluish grey */
        color: #464545; /* #464545; – Med dark gray */
        margin: 0; 
    }
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter
    You can individually set the background for the #wrapper, the #marquee, the #top-bar, the #page-header, the content-area-container, and on and on.
    Rob Reed
    @robreed_twitter
    @john_henry_twitter Thanks. Enjoy your vacation! Of course I'd love to have you poke around or help out. It will be at some stage shortly and then we can just keep working on it on and off going forward. That sort of iterative approach will get it where it needs to be I think.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    FYI, I'll be rob-for-gitter from now on. The only trouble is I think robreed_twitter is the only account that can manage this community. I don't seem to know the login info for that account.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    I'm thinking 1900px is too wide for max-width on an HD desktop (1920x1080). Maybe you can set a break point for 1920-wide screens (regular HD) with max-width at 1000px.
    On a 3000px Mac screen maybe users don't have the browser filling the screen, so the wideness of the type doesn't affect them, but on a "regular" laptop screen, which these days is often HD, the browser still pretty much fills the screen, and I'm having trouble following the line from one side to another.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    @passthejoe Good feedback, thanks! Maybe instead I'll limit the width of a more interior element. If we're talking about a grid, I think it's probably a good idea not to broadly restrict the width, which would take away the ability to have wider (or more) side-by-side elements. Restricting line length of course makes a lot of sense! So when there's only a single element in a wide container like that it probably should take up all of the available space. Does that seem reasonable?
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    Absolutely. Using all the screen is good if it's not one wide column of type.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    Sounds good. That's what I'll do.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    Look at how narrow the NY Times is making their text window: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/08/opinion/berlin-socialism-housing.html
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    I see. Yes, there's nothing tricky about that. It means changing a single max-width rule in the theme's stylesheet as-is.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    I like the big body type -- it stands out. The thicker serif fonts are nice
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    Here is the "Get Pocket" home page that leads to more stories in this style: https://getpocket.com/explore/trending?src=top_navbar
    I'm not as crazy about the home page as I am the individual items
    john henry
    @john_henry_twitter
    @rob-for-gitter @robreed_twitter it probably doesn’t have credentials beyond the Twitter OAuth.
    I’m still unsatisfied with my WordPress install. I think I don’t like how WP handles adding functionality, and the close coupling of design and functionality within the theme. I have an old site which broke under php7 and I finally had to update the theme major version, and I really dislike that every design agency puts in a custom admin area for their theme.
    john henry
    @john_henry_twitter
    I think I’d like to see a three part division of responsibility: a “style”, a “genre”, and “plugins”. Style would simply be the appearance, fonts, colors, etc. Genre would be most of what makes up a theme, and the “type” of site whether it be a blog, pages, or something more custom. Plugins would simply add functionality. Ideally they would all be tested and fully interoperable.
    This would address some of my frustrations trying to use Hugo as well, everything is either just the base framework (e.g. templates, routing) or highly theme-specific.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    This is a lot like the way Ode works. A theme is a folder. That folder contains plain old html, css, javascript along with images and whatever else you want to include in your theme (icons, other design assets, etc). You can have as many of those themes as you like. One of the default and any of the others can be explicitly called as part of the URL. If I had a theme called "coffee" that was not the default then I could render a page using the coffee theme with an address like ode.io/some-category/post-name.coffee.

    "Functionality" is not munged together with themes.

    Extensions, called addins, are just a standalone folders containing a perl script. They are explicitly ordered by the site maintainers (literally you tack a number on to the addin folders name. So the Indexette addin running at ode.io is installed as 04Indexette. Ode recognizes a number of a number of addin routines:

    01. inventory_ping_response,
    02. replace_discover_posts,
    03. replace_find_req_theme,
    04. replace_interpolate,
    05. replace_posts_sort,
    06. manipulate_request,
    08. pre_filter_posts,
    09. filter_posts,
    10. access_head_theme_early,
    11. access_date_theme_early,
    12. mod_post_file_before_read,
    13. access_title_tags_and_body_early,
    14. access_posts_theme_early,
    15. access_foot_theme_early,
    16. access_page_late,

    Any addin can implement any or all of these routines. The only one required is inventory_ping_response. Ode runs through the addins directory and for each addin it finds it calls the inventory_ping_response routine to ask the addin if it should be run. If yes, Ode remembers which of the other routines are implemented. As Ode runs it gets to the point where all of the manipulate_request routines for example should be run. It then calls the manipulate_request routine for each addin that includes one in order. Each subsequent addin is unaware that earlier addins have run. There is no intermixing of addins.

    It is true that there can be conflicts. For example replace_posts_sort changes the way that Ode sorts all of the posts for the site. If you had two addins installed both implementing a replace_posts_sort routine, the last one would win. The first one would change the sort routine, and the next would change it again, and then the posts would be sorted.

    That's about it.

    Content is stored in plain text files organized into folder hierarchies, just like a static site. The only difference is that the post files are just content, not all of the HTML that forms the framework of the page (duplicated for every file as you'd have with a static site).

    Themes are separate from content. The posts are plugged into the theme.

    Addins are completely separate. There are no references to addins in themes or vice versa.

    It could be that an addin requires a specific theme be installed (along with possibly many others). For example the editedit addin allows posts to be edited in a browser. It comes with it's own theme that includes the form fields necessary to input the changes. So the theme is the interface for the addin. But then that special theme is just part of the addin.

    As for Wordpress. I don't like it. :)
    john henry
    @john_henry_twitter
    big thumbs up to all of that!
    looks like ode.io is down in case you haven’t noticed.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    Yeah, the I let the domain name lapse. I hate paying +$30 for these .io domains. It should be back up shortly.
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    OK I renewed it. It should come back shortly.
    Steven Rosenberg
    @passthejoe
    I'm too cheap for .io
    rob-for-gitter
    @rob-for-gitter
    :point_up: July 26, 2019 5:44 PM I know what you mean @passthejoe. :\