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    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    (yea, meaning I think it feels like duplicated effort)
    John Watson
    @jkwatson
    that would mean a complete rework of the metric APIs.
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    oh? not that I felt it should be otel that changed :), but isn't openmetrics just an export protocol/format? is its form so different that even the API would have ot change?
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    @naseemkullah Perhaps we could discuss this in the afternoon Metrics SIG meeting. When we introduced AggregationTemporality=DELTA into the protocol, some of the distinctions between Counter and Gauge break down. In order to support aggregation on the write path we need more semantic clarity in the data, which is the root of all this.
    John Watson
    @jkwatson
    The question was about otel "meter types" which is an API concern, @tsloughter , isn't it?
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    it would definitely mean adding some (to be clear, not arguing in favor of this) from what I can see
    they have additional types like StateSet and Info
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    @tsloughter yeah, we've got to reconcile some things. Info feels like Resources to me. StateSet can be represented using labels and 0- or 1- values, and I'm not sure the added value is worth the added typing.

    @tsloughter GaugeHistogram is under debate here: open-telemetry/opentelemetry-proto#236

    Summary we've already accepted into the protocol, but all of these are data points that the OTel API says nothing about generating, so we should split this question into two parts: how do we translate them into OTLP? do we ever generate these natively?

    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    Info changes over time and Resources don't
    Naseem
    @naseemkullah
    Maybe get in touch with these folks, could be nice to deduplicate effort at some point https://github.com/OpenObservability/OpenMetrics/blob/master/MAINTAINERS.md
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    they have been
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    otlp will allow . in metric names, right? noticed OpenMetrics forbids it. I like dots over _ so hope it is allowed in otlp even if it means annoying processing to export to openmetrics format :)
    Subsequent characters must belong to the alphanumeric characters, '_', '.', and '-'. -- cool, it is allowed
    Michael Hausenblas
    @mhausenblas
    FYI: In our today’s SIG observability meeting (9am PT) we’re doing Open Metrics incubation due diligence, see also https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BN6ABvfbAMhJthH6xNOY5Lmls3jeE3kFbMgF04BzEKE/
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    Here's an OTel-Go PR combining the push and pull controllers,
    open-telemetry/opentelemetry-go#1378,
    adds a demo that configures simultaneous Prometheus and OTLP export.
    Richard Hartmann
    @RichiH
    @cijothomas @jkwatson @MrAlias @jmacd will you be at the OTel <> OpenMetrics sync call tomorrow? We had seven Prometheus-team members (three OM members) at the OTel metrics call last week, but that seems to have been cancelled without update to the calendar. Most of us can't make this week's due to time zones
    Richard Hartmann
    @RichiH
    (15:30 UTC on 2020-12-02, Steve & Bogdan created the call and have info; I can also share through DM)
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    @RichiH I am interested in joining. Can you share the call details via a DM if they are private, or maybe @bogdandrutu can add me?
    John Watson
    @jkwatson
    I will not be there. I have a 10-11 pm pacific-time call with APAC Java folks tonight, and won't be up that early. (or at least not ready to think coherently)
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    I would like an invite for the calendar, please
    Richard Hartmann
    @RichiH
    @jmacd @mralias : I messed up the calendly entry with PTO juggling and needed to send a new invite out. Will sleuth up your email addresses and send invitations
    8 replies
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    The notes from the OTel <> OpenMetrics meeting this morning https://docs.google.com/document/d/17r3BW7-DBtdNNJ_PRvAlrnbj_RsMDkSv_lljOhI03HI/edit?usp=sharing
    The goal is to continue the discussion at next week's Metric SIG meeting. @RichiH is planning to invite a group of Prometheus and OpenMetrics folks to attend that meeting (2020-12-10)
    2 replies
    Andrew Hsu
    @andrewhsu
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    ananthvanchip
    @ananthvanchip
    I have not looked at all the conversations in this group. But I wanted to know two things.
    1. Are there any auto instrumentation for metrics that is available today for metrics for Java & Python. I see that there are auto-instrumentation available for traces.
    2. What is the general approach we are using to create the metrics? For java, if we are going to go via the agent model, are we going to code the metrics publishing logic for each dependent library type (like the way it is done for traces) or we are planning for a generic metrics publishing model and have configuration overlay which defines how to collect the metrics for every library. I am talking an approach similar to what is here. https://github.com/willfleury/metrics-agent
    jgals
    @jgals
    @andrewhsu @jmacd to clarify, is the Metrics SIG meeting on the public calendar still happening today? https://github.com/open-telemetry/community#calendar
    Andrew Hsu
    @andrewhsu

    @jgals yes. agenda items have been moved to the specification sig gdoc (since metrics sig is a sub-sig of specification sig): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-bCYkN-DWJq4jw1ybaDZYYmx-WAe6HnwfWbkm8d57v8/edit#heading=h.uad3ptmi2zm6

    i believe we’re expecting attendees prometheus and openmetrics today

    jgals
    @jgals
    Got it, thanks @andrewhsu!
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    Please join the Metric SIG meeting! We are discussing OpenMetrics and OpenTelemetry today. Participation is welcomed
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    cc @bogdandrutu ^
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    i joined late, is anyone talking.. I can't hear anything
    3 replies
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    @jmacd (or anyone) do you have a paper for circhist (or circle-hist?)? having trouble googling for it.
    3 replies
    Rob Skillington
    @robskillington
    Hey just wanted to say that didn't mean to bring up the end user client compatibility issue at the end there without much time
    so apologies about bringing that up here, is that worth talking about next time though?
    John Watson
    @jkwatson
    I'm going to miss today's SIG meeting. I'll try to catch up later.
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    I have a new issue for review, joining the SIG now but expect a low turnout.
    open-telemetry/opentelemetry-specification#1297
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd
    I've posted a link to find a time for next week's all-day OTel Metrics workshop: https://doodle.com/poll/m4vzn57bd2tww9bd
    Tristan Sloughter
    @tsloughter
    does anyone know anyone at Uber who works on Otel? or just working on observability? I'm hoping to not lose my ability to spend work time on Otel (particularly metrics now) now that Postmates is Uber, so figure I should find out if anyone is working on Otel there :)
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    @alolita @jmacd do we have a meeting setup for Fridays workshop?
    Alolita Sharma
    @alolita
    @MrAlias Yes we have a meeting set up
    it is on the calendar
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    @alolita Thanks! Did a hard refresh and it showed up, sorry for the nag
    Alolita Sharma
    @alolita
    No worries :D
    @MrAlias please feel free to forward to anyone interested in metrics from your teams
    Tyler Yahn
    @MrAlias
    You read my mind :smile:
    Joshua MacDonald
    @jmacd

    The @opentelemetry Metrics Workshop happens tomorrow at 9:30 PST at https://zoom.us/j/8203130519

    9:30 - 9:45am PST: Opening remarks, organization of the day, how we got here, and the many streams of work. We have an API, language SDKs, a Protocol, a Collector, Receivers, Exporters, Semantic Conventions, and a connection to Tracing [organizer: OTel Committee]

    9:45-10:15am PST: Community building: @opentelemetry has first-class @OpenMetricsIO support, and @PrometheusIO users are first-class users. These projects are meant to get along, and committed to it. [organizer: Alolita Sharma]

    10:15 - 11:00am PST: @opentelemetry Collector deployment models (e.g., Daemonset vs. Statefulset), Agents, Sidecars, and first-class support for Prometheus Remote-Write [organizer: Jaana Dogan]

    11:30 - 12:15pm The Metrics API and Data Model, how we integrated the @opencensusio feature set (Tracing and Metrics, combined!) with the @OpenMetricsIO and StatsD data models. Presenting the six @opentelemetry metric instruments [organizer: Bogdan Drutu]

    12:15 - 13:00pm Histograms! How we’ll support high-resolution and variable-boundary histograms and the connection to sampling metric events [organizers: Josh MacDonald, Michael Gerstenhaber]

    13:30 - 15:00pm Questions and answers