These are chat archives for openfl/programming

16th
Oct 2015
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 15:43
@tanis2000 I'm here, watching quietly ;)
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:44
hey there Jeff
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 15:45
Hey what's this?
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:45
Running the Mode example in Release mode on the iPhone 6 is a bit better than in Debug but still slow considering the hardware it's running on
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 15:45
telemetry on or off?
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:45
without telemetry
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 15:45
hey, don't blame me! ;D
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:45
gonna try with tele now
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 15:45
okay, so we really do have a bottleneck
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:46
Jeff, what was the xml to tell it to connect to a remote box?
I can't recall by mind
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 15:46
just a sec...
<config:hxtelemetry host="192.168.1.100"/>
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 15:47
super! thanks!
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 15:48
(it's noted in the hxscout guide - I had to look it up also)
you could also disable allocation tracking, which artificially inflates the GC measurements:
<config:hxtelemetry host="192.168.1.100" allocations="false" />
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:07
please give me a good reason why it's not transmitting anything to the server :-P
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:15
hxScout keeps crashing now.. where is it saving its data?
I tried to telnet to its port, sent a few chars and it crashed
now it crashes at startup :(
I deleted the app and unpacked the zip again and now it works again. but still no connection from the game running on the device
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:34
Ok got it running.. don't ask me why but putting the xml line at the end of the project.xml did the trick ..
here's the telemetry
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:46
ha, you broke it with bad data. :D
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:46
I'm very good at crashing apps :D
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:46
I think on Mac it saves those temp sessions under the application folder
yeah, thanks, I'll file a bug
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:47
I looked in the Application Support under the system library and my user library but there's no hxScout folder there
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:49
Ah, is that where app files go on Mac? I should look into that. I had created a "temp" directory next to the executable, I believe.
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:49
d'oh! :)
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:51
Filed another bug, thanks
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:51
no worries ;)
have you had a look at the telemetry of Mode?
it looks like it's not just the renderer involved
the particles stuff is culprit as well
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 16:52
interesting
b/c a lot of flixel games don't use particles
like mine doesn't
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:53
man it looks like I'm the one who uses all of the stuff no one else does :D
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 16:53
helps us find the issue points :)
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:53
I use tweens, shaders, particles and raycasting a lot in my games
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:55
Yeah, it seems like there're a lot of arrays being thrown away. The "_non_class" thing is Dynamics that take on a Float, Int, or Bool state, I believe - I've got a fix that at least gives them better names, but it's in hxcpp (and not yet pushed)
And dynamics -- a few weeks back the OpenFL guys went through a pass of tightening up some of these allocations
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:57
@larsiusprime have you ever used Flixel's VirtualPad on iOS? I see it's defined only for Android in that example
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 16:57
very unexpected things cause them, e.g. map.getKeys() causes an Array allocation, function closures cause the inner simple types (e.g. int/float) to become Dynamics. I mean, it makes sense if you think about it, but when you're coding along, you don't really think about it
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 16:58
collision detection also does a lot of allocations apparently
and then there's OpenFL's renderer topping it up
is there a way to tell OpenFL that you want to use Tilemaps instead of Tilesheets?
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:05
I dunno - wouldn't it be HaxeFlixel using either TileSheets or Tilemaps? But I do know Tilemap is very new, so likely few things support it yet.
Just the BunnyMark demo afaik -- I want to see a Tilemap demo with a number of sprites (in 1 or more atlases), and integrating shaders with them.
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:07
we've got to ask to @larsiusprime
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:13
Guys, find me a job in your side of the world so that I can talk to you at decent hours :D
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:24
lol, you and Mike were talking all through the night here. :D
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:26
I usually have to hunt US and Canada guys at night to get the answer to something I've been worrying about since early morning :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:26
I don't actually have a smartphone
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:26
O.o really?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:26
Yeah
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:26
You're probably one of the few I know :D
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:26
yeah
Tilemap is very new
like it was added a month ago or so
so it requires refactoring the core render loop to put into flixel
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:27
Slack has a cool feature in showing timezones and offsets.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:27
obviously on our radar but nobody's had time to do it yet, or at least if they are there's no PR just yet
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:27
next time i'm gonna pull you all into slack.. if i can get a room for free :D
I don't know much about Flixel's core render loop but I might investigate
I don't even know much about Tilemap, except they work
but I have no idea what they're doing under the hood
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:33
There's lots of good discussion in OpenFL's slack - just send @jgranick your email and ask for an invite (same for Mike, if he'd like.) But unfortunately it's a free installation, so it doesn't keep history indefinitely.
Or me your email, and I'll request from Joshua
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:35
sure, that'd be awesome
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:40
@larsiusprime you don't personally have a smartphone? I'm actually considering dumping mine. Crazy, but sometimes I feel like it's a bit too in control of my life. :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:40
I intentionally have the old style flip phones they market to old people
I'm actually grumpy because it has some pointless media features and a color display; ideally I want a black & white oldschool grid LCD display, and only talk and text, and thus a battery life that lasts forever
my wife has a smartphone so we're not totally out of the loop, I borrow that when I absolutely need it
I think it's android
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:42
yeah, the battery factor would be great. I used a flip phone for a while that the texting was intolerably slow. Do you text?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:42
Yeah, T9 or ABC texting is pretty slow when compared to smartphones
influenced a lot by the form factor of the flip phone keypad
I used to be pretty fast on my previous model but it broke
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:42
I want android voice texting and reminders on a flip phone! Everything else I could do without.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:42
the new one sucks b/c they just dump these models on old people now
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:44
we're a mixed device family, lol, wife has macbook air and iPhone, I have an android, chromebook and prefer linux. We have a desktop Windows machine. So I'm generally ok for x-platform development. But I spend most of my time in linux.
I let my ios dev license expire.
(oh, I've got an old mac mini I ssh into to do builds :) )
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:46
man, I live on iPhone and Mac.. and I have like a billion different tablets and smartphones in the office.. I regret the time mobile phones were a mirage
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:47
haha. yeah, my problem being in linux -- other people report issues on the popular platforms :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:48
so long story short I am absolutely useless for debugging ios and android issues
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:48
I'm all for doing that @larsiusprime
but sometimes I lack the chance to talk with someone who knows the inner workings of the frameworks involved. Being able to speak to you, Joshua, etc, would really make things easier on my side
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:50
yeah sure
Joshua knows a lot more about the mobile side of things than me
but I can tell you all about the general architecture
are you aware of the general history of lime/openfl ?
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:50
not much. I know OpenFL spawned for the reason of getting something working for the Flash guys, but that's as far as I know
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:51
okay so
in the beginning there was NME
"native media engine"
there was no openfl, no lime, no snow, no luxe, no kha
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:51
:popcorn:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:51
this was the first big Haxe multimedia engine, created by Hugh sanderson, the author of HXCPP as well
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:51
:cheers for hugh:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:51
two very major contributors to NME were Joshua Granick and Sven Bergstrom
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:52
:horray for sven and joshua:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:52
back then NME was the one big framework pretty much everybody used
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:52
I didn't know Sven was involved back then
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:52
yeah he actually created a huge part of lime, we'll get to that in a sec
the thing was NME didn't meet everybody's needs
basically, NME's architecture was a thin haxe layer, and then a bunch of different custom backends for each platform
and no HTML5 target
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:53
too bad. one framework sounds good. eventually modularize it
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:53
also it had a flash-like API
on flash target it just fell through to that
on the others it would have a totally custom back end, usually written in C++ or whatever was needed
this made it very difficult to maintain
and so it reached a level of maturity where it worked, and it worked well, but it was hard to add on to it as you'd have to add your feature like five times
in each of the backends
also, those backends were created before SDL2 was widespread
also, there was a controversy with the Flash API
NME was not separated into high-and low like OpenFL and Lime later would be
it was this one big thing
so some people said "Flash API is holding us back, dump it"
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:55
:I dont mind the flash API, hxScout uses it, its familiar to lots of folks:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:55
others said "we really need it, in fact we need to cover MORE of it"
the point is not to say which was right
but to point out that there were two large camps with different needs
ultimately this led to a split
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:55
indeed
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:55
so OpenFL forked off of NME
and then, with a lot of work from Sven and Joshua, split it into two parts -- Lime and OpenFL
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:56
sounds good
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:56
this was actually a pretty big dramatic split
lot of hurt feelings at the time but things are mostly stable now
so the next split later on was Snowkit
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:56
:kumbaya hugh, sven, and joshua, kumbaya: :grouphug:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:57
Sven was a big move behind lime, and he still helps a lot, but I think his needs lay elsewhere
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:57
but why split it again?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:57
you'd have to ask him, but I think basically the direction Lime was going in was not what he had in mind for his needs
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:57
I understand building something on top of Lime.. but dumping it for rewriting something similar doesn't sound right
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:57
so he created flow, snow, luxe according to the needs he had in mind
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 17:58
I think lime was lower-level -- below the Flash stuff, in hopes of building other stuff on top of it.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:58
well, it all comes down to the specifics and you'd have to ask Sven for specific motivations
I don't want to speculate
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 17:58
sure
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 17:58
or cast aspersions or anything, just trying to stick to events and facts
but anyway, that's the basic history
now in the last year
OpenFL has moved to the "next" codebase
OpenFL started basically as a fork of NME -- light layer of haxe stretched across custom C++ backends
Now, in "next", OpenFL is 100% a haxe library
and Lime provides the backends
AND Lime is built on top of SDL2 wherever possible
so that when we add a feature we don't have to add it five times, it's just suddenly everywhere
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:00
I actually like Lime tbh
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:00
so that brings us up to speed
now, let me lay out the philosophical differences of the major frameworks as I understand them:
1) NME: stability and performance. Don't move the API around. It works, it's fast, don't fix it if it ain't broke.
also, cover the Flash API, but doesn't insist on covering absolutely all of it with 100% fidelity
2) Lime: low level cross platform abstraction layer, build off SDL, try to avoid custom backends. Top priority seems to be: GET ON ALL THE PLATFORMS
2.a) OpenFL: cover the Flash API, and cover as much of it as possible, with the greatest fidelity. Integrate with all the Flash tools it can. Support SWF on all targets if we can. Basically be a wholesale native crossplatform replacement for Flash, and a solid multimedia library in general
3) Flow, Snow, and Luxe: You have to go to sven for specifics and he may correct me, but as I see it:
-- Don't make it more complex than it needs to be
-- Forget about flash entirely
-- Focus squarely on GL for native and WebGL for html5
and then Kha is its own thing with a focus on being very lightweight and super crossplatform
So Lime+OpenFL endured a LOT of instability as we transitioned to Next, it has been a tough transition, and you are coming in now at the very end of it
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:04
I haven't looked at lime directly... For games (which I'm not professionally involved in...yet, but I have done one in AIR) I'm interested in GPU-focused APIs, sprite sheets, shaders, etc. At work, we may shift from AS3 to Haxe, targeting html5 and perhaps native, so it could become in interest there.
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:04
Now I have a much clearer view of things, thanks
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:05
A few of us still say OpenFL next is fairly unstable for some uses. :) - Paul Thompson and I have bad luck, maybe just the way we use the framework.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:05
yeah, it started becoming actually usable in production just like -- 3-4 months ago?
but it's getting there, finally.
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:06
Well.. at work I don't make games very often so I don't care that much unless someone comes up with a Haxe framework that can drive native Android and iOS UI.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:06
Ultimately I think the trouble has paid off, because we have waaaay more contributions now
such as your own, for instance. It used to be such a pain to try to submit patches
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:06
But in my spare time I like to make games.. and sometimes I get a gig at work too, but my main aim is at native platforms and eventually webgl
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:06
Because absolutely everything had to be done via C++ code and then linked up, very little of the code was in haxe
this was back in NME and OpenFL 1.0 (just after the fork) days
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:07
Luckily I'm not interested in native-looking apps, at work or for myself. Yes, webgl is very interesting
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:07
but NME's advantage was that... hey, it's fast and it works.
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:07
"fast and works" is hard to argue with.
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:07
:catching up on the history lesson:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:07
OpenFL's next transition was a bet that we could make maintenance easier, unify HTML5 and Native code with a lot of the haxe logic, and also make it much easier to get contributions
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:07
C++ isn't really a problem here.. been coding with that for ages. But debugging Haxe+CPP stuff should have been a pain indeed
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:08
The real challenge was hooking up the entire CFFI daisy-chain
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:08
: don't skip the hilarious interjections:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:08
Say there was a bug in, I dunno, BitmapData.threshold() or whatever
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:08
:blocks jcward for off color commentary:
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:08
lol
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:08
now, you just go into BitmapData.hx and make the edit direclty in the haxe logic, one change. If it's performance-sensitive, maybe you do a CFFI call.
Before, everything was a CFFI call which was like 4 or 5 edits in 3 different files
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:09
Right now I'm in a spot where Lime could be my backend, but I'd also like to have a lightweight framework on top of it with features like sprites, animations, particles, shaders, stencils and basic raycasting. Then I can build my stuff on top of that.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:09
That was the original vision of Lime
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:09
thats where i come in ;)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:09
that we'd have OpenFL over here for the flash people, and then X, Y, and Z built on lime for whatever other needs
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:09
but I don't want to start yet another framework just to get OpenFL out of the equation :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:10
still quite possible
I know several game devs who have their own in house renderers or whatever that just use Lime, not OpenFL
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:10
im gonna port my renderer/framework over to Lime anyway just to get acquainted with it. shaders, stencils, sprites, etc all silly fast (assuming Lime is fast)
good learning experiment
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:11
I'll admit, that does sound interesting...
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:11
guys.. it's late and I need to drive home.. I'll catch with you in about an hour. And Mike, I want something like that.. any chance someone already started something similar and we can all join forces?
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:11
but isn't that what luxe is, basically?
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:11
everything i have seen builds on top of OpelFL instead of Lime
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:12
right, even away3d
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 18:12
see you all later if you don't go to bed/work/whatever in the meanwhile :)
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:12
cya
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:12
well, luxe is on top of Snow (low level GL wrapper) which has Phoenix on top of it as the renderer
the issue @tanis2000 and myself are running into with luxe is tons of allocations (GC monster lurks) and slow renderer
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:13
oh, gotcha
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:13
So Lime just exposes an OpenGL context as I understand it
Like you get your basic windowing, rendering context, events, and input, and that's pretty much it
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:13
perfect. lime sounds basically the same as snow then
SDL + OpenGL wrapper
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:14
yeah pretty much
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:14
Sven could likely improve that situation, esp with the visibility hxScout provides. He was looking at it for a bit, but tbh it was a bit buggy & slow back then, esp with a lot of allocations!
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:14
does it handle GL state caching?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:14
is "it" Lime or Snow+Luxe?
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:14
Lime. i wouldnt ask you about snow/luxe ;)
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:14
Sven might also argue there's linc_sdl -- how does this compare to lime?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:15
linc_sdl is just super low level bindings as far as I know
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:15
it makes writing native wrappers a snap. very handy for that
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:15
so very bare-metal, not quite a "framework"
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:15
gotcha
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:15
basically a way to call SDL Directly without cffi
you'd have to ask Joshua about GL state caching
I'm not super up and up on the particulars
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:16
ill just dive in. thats probably better for everyone. then i dont bother anyone and i get to see all the codes
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:16
Joshua, Justo, and also Sven know a whole bunch about the inner workings of Lime and OpenFL
this has been Story Time with Uncle Lars
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:17
lol, thanks Lars!
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:17
now that i got OpenFL up and running i can finally play with it. had el capitan issues when i first looked into it a couple weeks ago
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:17
I noticed some PR's went in that supposedly fixed the retina scaling issues you mentioned
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:17
@prime31 I'd love to follow along, I have little experience in (GPU-focused framework development) arena but lots of interest
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:18
you should probably follow real far behind. this train plows through stuff and leaves a wake of hurt in its path
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:18
lol, no worries, I know how rapid prototyping goes. :)
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:18
im on a 2d framework evaluation rampage. trying to find something to stick with for all future games.
ive gone through over a dozen in the last 2 weeks so far
chewed up, spit out and discarded. its down to just a few now
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:23
@jcward if you have an interest in this whole GPU framework world of code definitely have a look at Khas code. its a really cool toolchain. cross compiles shaders from GLSL to Metal (iOS) and DirectX. has native backends for OpenGL, Metal and DirectX all with the same api. lots of really neat stuff in there.
the big issues with Kha is no documentation, no community, basically one developer maintaining it and it is very fragile.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:24
you're going to hate me, but there was an opportunity for kha to have been part of lime as well
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:25
:s spewing hate:
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:25
back when I was looking for contractors to help us build the console backend, one of the bids game from Robert Konrad
very little was known about Kha at the time, pretty much nobody really knew anything about it until this past year's WWX
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:26
maybe it was for the best. i dont think he believes in code comments or documentation
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:26
for that and some other various reasons we went with another contractor, though if more had been known about Kha at the time it might have gone otherwise, anyways it's all in the past now
(we're very happy with the guy we picked as it turned out, James Gray)
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:26
it has some great ideas but i dont think its stable enough for production use for anyone other than Robert. he seems to be the only one familiar enough with the code to fix anything. too many moving parts in there
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:27
it would be nice if he could attract the same sort of community Sven has with the snowkit collective
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:27
i totally agree but it doesnt seem like he really wants to.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:27
ultimately the frameworks that get good documentation and communications are the ones that thrive
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:28
without a doubt. docs and samples are paramount. if the barrier of entry is too high it wont be climbed by the many
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:28
I think we still have ways to go with Lime and OpenFL but we're much improved from last year
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:28
although working samples are important too (Im looking at you OpenFL sample library)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:29
was this the scaling issues you just had or something else?
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:29
scaling and the PiratePig is just borked all around. input doesnt work, sound cuts out after ~3 seconds
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:29
yeah, I'd never seen those issues, everything was pretty darn smooth for me
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:29
which platform?
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:29
retina mac?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:30
I've never seen those issues either, you might be the first to report them
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:30
retina mac exported to HTML5, native and neko
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:30
all targets?
yeah, retina mac makes sense
I guess not all our regular contributors have one of those
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:30
i didnt look into it much yet. my goal was just to get compiling and have an IDE that worked
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:30
also SDL didn't have good dpi reporting until quite recently, did you file an issue?
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:30
if i dont have "jump to definition" working in the ide im useless. cant learn the code
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:30
because if this is seriously broken it should be a priority fix
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:31
i didnt file an issue yet. my plan was to see if i could figure out why it was busted first. have a lot to learn in the process
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:31
looks like this was recently addressed 9 hours ago:
openfl/lime#607
did you try updating since then?
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:31
so far all i did was run PiratePig and an Empty template displaying an image (the first tutorial in the docs)
ill update now
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:32
I don't typically use an IDE - I do alright with just: api.haxe.org and try.haxe.org -- and sometimes ihx is helpful.
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:33
i cant live without that jump to definition stuff. makes traversing other peoples code so much faster
it helps me learn a codebase as quickly as possible
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:33
indeed, I could imagine.
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:53
Lime update doesnt seem to fix the issue :( example
well, it kind of fixes it. after resizing if you move the window it then works
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 18:57
interesting
did you update openfl as well?
but in any case that should be brought to joshua's attention, is he in this chat?
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 18:58
he is, but offline here and on slack
prime31
@prime31
Oct 16 2015 18:58
yeah. i updated everything in haxelib
ill dig into it a bit more and send a proper bug report this afternoon. i want to try out the other demos and see if they all have sound and input issues
back to work for me for a bit...
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 20:36
I fixed that issue on iOS but then it doesn't resize on that device. And it looks like a problem occurring during resize. I'll have another look at it on a Mac with Retina tomorrow if I find some time during this weekend
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 20:46
BTW one of the guys at Motion Twin told me that they're soon going to switch from h2d to heaps. I don't really know where that framework places itself. At first I thought it was just a personal project of Haxe's creator
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 20:57
you mean h3d?
heaps is an evolution of h3d I believe
they both started as the same library
also, another valuable part of Haxe history: Haxe's creator, Nicolas Canasse, used to be a Motion-Twin employee
he created Haxe while working there, and presumably that's where h3d/heaps got started as well
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:01
I had a look at the renderer and it looks like it's aimed at NME mainly
h3d, h2d, hxd they all make up heaps indeed
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:07
Lars, what are you doing for a living? Making games? Just curious about you guys as you're all nice persons to talk to
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:07
I make games for a living
Defender's Quest series
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:07
Interestingly, I think Nicolas releases his games using the SWF target and AIR runtime (at least for evoland 1, windows, iirc.)
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:08
Yes, there are imports of flash.* stuff everywhere in heaps
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:08
yes he did for Evoland 1
it was just AIR + Stage3D
no actual native target
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:08
I make wootmath for a living, previously a similar kids-tech creativity site.
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:09
Nice jobs indeed :)
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:11
any idea about evoland 2?
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:11
I haven't checked it
I think he definitely wanted to add native for it
I should probably write a big history of all the haxe frameworks article
I wind up explaining the same story a lot
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:11
I don't understand how he gets such a nice 3D flow from Haxe to SWF
lol, I was thinking you should write it down
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:12
Your stories are awesome
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:12
maybe a wikipedia article, so everyone can edit, fight, and demonize each other :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:12
I think I'll just post something on FoD one day
and put in caveats that I'm just trying to outline how things evolved and leave out all the most colorful bits relating to people's personalities
Tom Fulp seems interested in our Flash professional plugin
he just retweeted my storify about it
(Tom Fulp is leader of Newgrounds and The Behemoth)
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:14
i read Sven's post about the origin of snowkit
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:14
where's that? It'd be good source material
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:14
what stands out is that he wanted to drive the decisions on his own and couldn't do that with lime
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:15
makes sense
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:15
I dunno if I read that, but when I was first getting into haxe, he had some irritations with openfl. he has good (but strong) ideas about separation of concerns and libraries. Joshua is more of a "bring it all together and make it work for the end user" philosophy.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:16
yeah
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:17
both great guys, but I see how their ideologies are a bit incompatible
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:17
I am more for the "have more people do what they do best" and get someone to make a solid backend while someone else works on a high end framework for the actual games
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:17
I think ultimately it was about toolchains more than apis
the bottom 3% of the framework that nobody ever really sees much
that affects everything and makes all sorts of assumptions
another bit in there
where he mentions "aether"
for a while during the openfl legacy->next transition
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:17
Never heard of that aether
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:18
the "lime tools" (the command line interface you use when doing stuff with lime) were attempted to be spun off
Josh and Sven collab'ed on this I believe
try to make the tools a separate framework-agnostic library
that's just there to help you manage your builds or whatever
not even tied to lime
but I guess it didn't work out, it still was too tied to the way lime does things
or something
and so after it became clear that snow and luxe would use its own set of tooling (flow), joshua decided to just turn aether back into "lime-tools"
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:19
Sounds like yet another clone of ant/make/gradle/etc.. like there aren't a billion of those tools already
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:19
so it's just packed in with lime
ultimately I think it became a YAGNI situation
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:20
lime tools justbwork fine for what it needs to do imho
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:20
if no other framework wants to use lime's tools, just forget about trying to make them universal and just focus on serving lime, and then spend our efforts on the huge list of issues
basically the picture I'm trying to paint is that there's been lots of attempts back and forth to make everything universal and it keeps bumping into differing project priorities that everyone has
I think the most successful attempts are when people find ways to lift things out and make them framework agnostic
like haxeui, and mint, and hxscout, etc
but yeah, to whatever degree we can take a good framework like lime and build it up
then make it a foundation for other frameworks, that's great
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:22
then make an haxeflixel that I can plug directly to Lime if I want to ;)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:22
that would be interesting
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:22
away3d should as well
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:22
doable in theory
the main issue
here's something not a lot of people realize about openfl
is that lime just provides you a GL context and nothing else
so no renderer
the renderer actually lives in OpenFL
and that's where it does a lot of magic, by unifying across targets
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:23
yep, I noticed that
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:23
so you don't have to write your own rendering logic several times for each platform
and if you want, you can ignore the whole display list stuff
and just use the drawtiles (or soon tilemap) apis, that technicallya ren't part of flash api but have been written such that they still work on flash target
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:24
but you need to know the internals to avoid display lists and such
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:24
yeah
if you're using the rendering apis directly absolutely
so something like haxeflixel does this
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:24
right, so that's why away3d is in there? that's super awesome if I can simply layer those renderers on top of each other - away3d for a 3d layer, Flash for a UI layer, etc
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:24
it subverts the entire display list
yeah so
"stage3d" in openfl
is basically just a thin wrapper over a GL layer
and you can in fact layer those renderers together
I think I saw some examples of that somewhere
and it works in HTML5 and in Flash and in Native
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:25
no, I mean away3d for haxe is built on top of openFL (and not lime)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:25
(minus bugs we still need to fix)
right that's what I mean
away3d uses openfl, via the stage3d api (I believe)
and therefore, because of that, it gets both the HTML5 renderer and the native GL renderer at the same time
without having to write them twice
because OpenFL has already written both renderers, and unified them under one API
and so when we add the console renderer
if you use lime directly, you have to write something that matches that
but if you use openfl, you just get it "for free" because we will do the work to unify it with openfl's rendering API's
and that gets you PS4, Xbox One, WiiU, PSVita, etc
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:27
ok so,to,get where I want to, I'd have to look into switching to tilemaps in flixel and add support for spritevshaders... not much tbh. And then it's allocations to check
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:27
yeah I guess so?
flixel already has several render "modes" already
I believe they are:
FLX_RENDER_BLIT
FLX_RENDER_TILES
FLX_RENDER_TRIANGLES
"BLIT" is basically a legacy renderer for flash, and just uses copypixels like the old flixel does
also I think this is used when in HTML5 canvas mode
"TILES" is what it uses on native targets, which is just drawTiles
"TRIANGLES" is using openfl's drawtriangles api, I believe in flixel its experimental and not sure if it works and/or is mature/good
but basically we would do something like
FLX_RENDER_TILEMAP
and then add that
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:29
It sounds like a plan
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:29
right now FLX_RENDER_BLIT gets set for flash, html5(canvas), and TILES gets set for native, html5(webgl), and TRIANGLES only if you specify it yourself
so the structure for adding a new one should already be there
and then once it's mature, we make it default
I believe Justo just added custom shaders to Flixel
in a PR earlier today
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:30
Wow! Good news!
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:30
it's not per-sprite just yet, he just did a quick change to make it per-camera or apply to the whole screen
but it should be possible to implement per-sprite now
it just needs to be done
he's probably working on it as we speak
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:31
I'm pretty happy if I can use OpenFL and get Flash, away3D, or TileMap layers. But the low-level work Mike's talking about has me interested, at least just for exposure to various APIs and ideas.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:31
because in order to do this at all, it means he's already added per-sprite custom shaders to OpenFL and joshua has merged it in
so that's all the information
Justo Delgado is your man for a lot of this
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:32
Lars, you could just copy-paste this log into a blog post and call it the October 2016 OpenFL State of the Union.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:32
he has the most experience with BOTH OpenFL and HaxeFlixel
as he's contributed tremendously huge features to both of them
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:33
Mike wants to port his own game library as far as I understand. He doesn't really need all the flixel stuff. Maybe not even openfl if he's targeting only opengl
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:33
I sponsored him for a while until we ran out of budget
Flixel is a BIG library
it has been pretty solidly battle tested, but like any really mature game engine has a lot of stuff in it
that's why we split it up into flixel-addons and flixel-ui
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:34
Flixel is complete and that's what makes it easy for newcomers
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:34
it does suggest a particular paradigm
so people who prefer entity systems sometimes don't like it, but if you think of FlxSprites as simple render objects and combine it with an ECS I think you can get a good hybrid
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:35
Speaking of newcomers, there was another Flash 0-day exploit announced yesterday/today. OpenFL should hopefully catch some Flash refugees (to borrow Lars' term, was it?)
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:35
and I have quite some stuff I made with flixel so if I can help making it go quicker, I'll be real happy
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:35
This message was deleted
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:35
but bottom line, what's cool about haxeflixel is that every day I find new stuff in it, and I've been using it (and contributing to it!) for years and years
like, oh, I need to do this weird thing with text, oh there's a function (and a demo!) for that
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:36
I use flxsprites as components :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:36
that's cool!
for the longest time, HaxeFlixel was the most organized, well-documented, most active community in all of Haxe
I suppose arguably in many ways it still is
this was back when the haxe.org website was ugly and the compiler wasn't even on github yet :)
Jeff Ward
@jcward
Oct 16 2015 21:38
It certainly has the most entries in ludum dare from Haxe folk
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:38
it's well suited to LD in particular because "there's a feature for that"
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:38
Indeed
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:39
like any typical out-of-the-box simple game thing has almost certainly been implemented and documented in flixel
the big challenge with HaxeFlixel
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:39
it's good for quick prototyping
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:39
is we have our own migration underway
from version 3.x to version 4.x
IE, the version on github is light years ahead of what's released on haxelib
b/c we have so many breaking changes we want to do them all at once
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:39
Aye, you guys broke my tile maps :)
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:39
anyways its been over a year now and we really need to synch up a release
openfl's own transition made this complicated as we felt we kinda had to wait for the dust to settle there first
but now that that's maturing I think it will be time
I want to see a flixel 4.x release around the time DQHD releases
lotta stuff to do in the meantime though
we have to document everything we broke :D
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:41
Writing docs is a daunting task
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:41
I feel we're up to the task at haxeflixel, just gotta do it
I'll donate some time myself when the time comes
I try to take all the innovations I make in DQ and roll them out to haxeflixel when I can
flixel-ui is the biggest example of that, crashdumper and firetongue both came from DQ as well although they're not flixel-specific
they still depend on openfl, but they don't need to, I should make them framework agnostic
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:44
that's cool!
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:45
but yeah, like flixel-ui was originally just the Defender's Quest user interface library
it's not as fancy as haxeui but it gets the job done
and it fills a niche, because it's really awkward to not be able to mix flixel sprites with ui elements
and with other ui kits you'd have to layer them over your entire scene
so flixel-ui, everything is a flixel object. That limits its usefulness to just flixel, but it works for that
whereas crashdumper and firetongue anyone could presumably use with any project
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:46
as you say it gets the job done
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:46
so any other minutiae you want to know about the haxe ecosystem?
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:48
nah that's more than enough for today, you've been a super resource of information! :) i have other concerns regarding the (lack of) sponsoring but I will leave that for another day ;)
right now if i can get something to run at decent speed on the tvOS and have some shaders altogether next week, I'll be happy
and finally able to concentrate on the game instead of the framework
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:50
the sponsoring thing has been a long game
and if you have any ideas I'd love to hear them
mostly the big players I KNOW would find this useful seem to all be waiting on each other to jump in
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:51
today i did some tests with unity and the apple tv remote and it looks like the controller is quite laggy. I can't afford the game engine to add more delay
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:52
the controller itself lags? ick
yeah I think we can speed this up
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:52
You need a real big hit on consoles or mobile to get some real attention imho
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:52
the good news is if you want to get attention from openfl or flixel team you're doing it exactly right
hopefully it will be DQ, a man can dream
but we are using Lucas Pope to help with the console stuff
we're bringing Papers Please to at least one console using our tech
so that's something
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:53
get it on xone, vita and ps4
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:53
Mino Monsters is pretty big on mobile
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:53
you have to
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:53
that's up to Lucas
but I'll be bringing DQHD to all those platforms for sure
DQII as well
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:54
i read about mino.. That's a good hit
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:54
and we have Nobuo Uematsu (final fantasy composer) collaborating with us on DQII, that'll be next year it releases I think
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:54
well done
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:54
but I acknowledge I'm still a relatively small fish
what I really want is to get Tom Fulp's attention
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:54
and then you need some action game on consoles as well
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:55
Castle Crashers, BattleBlock theater
he's been interested in OpenFL for a while but he wants the Flash CC plugin to be 100% mature
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:55
or get the guys at EA to port their openfl games to console too
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:55
I'm supposed to get a meeting with one of their guys
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:55
He could sponsor the flash stuff indeed
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:55
tried to happen last week, think it got pushed to next week
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:56
but i guess he's more interested in keeping the games on the web for obvious reasons
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:56
we also have a guy on the Firaxis team
Crazysam, who is a haxeflixel contributor
he works on the X-Com games
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:56
Super!
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:56
they don't use any haxe there of course, it's just his day job
but I might be able to ask him if he could set up a meeting, especially if they use scaleform...
because that's one pitch for OpenFL, you can break a dependency on scaleform
which is basically just flash for console/pc UI's
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:58
yeah I remember it.. I think it was part of a big game engine years ago
can't recall which though
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:58
that's what EA is using it for
(OpenFL)
it speeds up iteration and makes them less dependent on scaleform
also Stencyl is powered by Lime+OpenFL
they'll probably want to sublicense the console targets to their customers so there's a natural sponsorship conversation right there
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 21:59
that's good
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 21:59
and then of course WayForward
who is helping us build the console tech in the first place
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:00
even though i have no idea how many customers they have
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:00
every Ludum Dare
there's lots of Stencyl games I notice
so it's at least reasonably popular
and they're still in business
but seriously if you think of someone
give me their name and number and I will be sure to approach them about sponsoring openfl or the haxe ecosystem in general
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:01
it's a hard sell. You need money to attract money
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:01
yup
also "little red hen" syndrome
everyone wants to help the little red hen eat the bread, nobody wants to help her bake it
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:02
and most studios would look for case histories and a company that can offer support when needed
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:02
right
and many are categorically terrified of the word "open source"
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:03
and i agree with them even if i contribute to oss myself
it's got to be oss but with a solid company behind it.. then you have chances
think about this: i am a company. I want to own the 2d tech i will use and sell it to others (as paid support). I look into openfl. Nice. But it's oss. Who owns it? Shall I lose months trying to get the ball roling? Not really. It's a hard sell.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:07
yeah
with me what's unique about haxe is the promise of never being locked out; if it was just another cross platform VM I wouldn't be as interested
so it's good we have the haxe foundation now
they don't want to play favorites with frameworks though
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:08
understandable
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:09
so at least in terms of what is known publicly
my own company sponsors OpenFL
but again I'm small potatoes
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:11
you should also make a checklist of why openfl is better than game maker studio or unity. and make it stand out.
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:11
I guess it fulfils a different niche than either of those
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:11
i'm off to bed now. It's past midnight and the alarm is set at 5.30 am :(
Lars Doucet
@larsiusprime
Oct 16 2015 22:11
but yeah, a direct "why not use X or Y instead of this" is a good convo
oh wow sorry!
Valerio Santinelli
@tanis2000
Oct 16 2015 22:12
np it's been a pleasure, it's the timezone that's killing me
catch you tomorrow! Have a good evening!